Video Transcript: House to House - Appendix C Types of Modern-Day Apostles

Larry - Well, Henry, as you know, in the scriptures, and I've got some I've read  here, yeah, I  

Henry - got that, yeah, you know, there's  

Larry - a lot of reference to apostles, and there's a lot of lot of difference of  understanding in the body of Christ about all the well, we  

Henry - reform people don't know if we go for this thing again. Let's just, let's  again. Here we go. You got, you got your resident reform background. What I  see? Okay, no, and I'm gonna tell you where I'm at. Okay, we'll go. Okay, I see  

Larry - it in Scripture, and I meet these kind of apostolic leaders in the nations,  yeah, I meet them, and I've just come to the conclusion. This is not all inclusive,  that there are at least 10 different types in the scriptures of apostolic leaders,  Apostle, apostolic leader. Apostolic leader is a little softer.  

Henry - Let's, let's reflect theologically a little bit again on apostle before we  even, okay, go ahead. Let's just have that a little bit yes, okay, I'll tell you where  many of the traditions of the denominations come, including the Christian  Reformed Church. Okay? Reform Presbyterian. So they look at apostle and they say, well, there was the apostles, and the office of apostle ended when the  apostles died.  

Larry – Are you talking about the 12,  

Henry - or in general, there's a large group of people, a large group of  Christians, who sort of push back, and I'm not saying I'm one of them, but, and I  want to reflect on my journey a little bit to come to this, but there is a belief by  some that apostolic authority was connected specifically to Scripture. So the  canon, those who would write with apostle credibility, were the eyewitnesses of  Christ and His ministry, and when they passed away, the apostolic ministry  passed away with them. Okay? So that's okay.  

Larry - That's coming from I Corinthians 13, for Am I right about that says, where there's prophecies, they'll cease, Where there's tongues, they'll be stilled. Where there's knowledge, it will pass away.  

Henry – No, where they where, that's one of the places. But where they go  deeply into this is it's a theological assessment that reflected some of the early  church writers around the time of the canon, where they would like talk about  the ending of that era where certain books would be in the Bible books, they had

apostolic authority. So how the Catholic Church developed. And then many  churches, including many Protestant, post reformational churches, they sort of,  they were world of the Apostle was closed down. I see. Okay, so that's their  argument. Okay, the key thing there is the apostle. Now, I consulted with Dr  Dave Feddes about this, so let's talk about that a little bit. So I said, Okay, I've  been reading Larry Kreider books here, and I've been at, you know, asking  myself. And I said, So Dave, Dr Feddes, what do you make of all this? And I  said, I would like to like look at the work of the apostle as a gift reading these  various books. And you know, Dave said to me, he said, The only thing you have to be careful of saying is that the apostles are always the apostles, and the  being gifted as an apostle is, let's call it apostle with a little a the apostles were a group of People in place and time that were called by God to write the New  Testament, scriptures and to start the church. But just because we say the  apostles, does that mean that we take the office of apostle and say, no longer  again?  

Larry - So when you say the apostles, are you talking about the 12? Are you  talking about the 19, 20, 21 the  

Henry - apostles that witnessed Jesus. Okay, so, again, it was a set, you know.  So how I've come on this and say, you know that there are many, in fact, there's  some cases in the Bible when there's does, talking about the gifts, where it says  some to be apostles. You don't get to. Narrative there that they're trying to, like,  close it down. That's correct. That is correct.  

Larry - And we both know that is more than the 12, exactly and even.  

Henry - And you know, it's really interesting. Apollos is an interesting example of  an apostle because it said he was in Jesus, and he was actually discipled by  Priscilla. And where is a guy who is called an apostle, and evidence shows that  he may have never, not met Jesus personally? No,  

Larry - I've got him on my list. I'm gonna  

Henry - give you my list. Okay, all right, why don't we go for we talk a little  

Larry - now and see here, I think I agree this, this, there were 12, no question.  There's the apostles. And I agree totally, no one ever takes their place. And you  want to add the others who live during Jesus time for that, I'm okay with that. I'm simply saying today, I find they should have this gift, right? And they think  apostolicly. They think about expansion. They think they do when we see the  apostles in the Bible do even though they're in a whole different category. I 

understand that completely right now. I think one mistake we might make is that, that we think every the only apostolic model is Paul. Right Paul is a major, I  would say, Gentiles church plant churches.  

Henry - I tend to sort of go down the Paul. There's no question he was the  inspiration of Christian leaders, Institute exactly the whole bi-vocational thing,  the whole enterprise thing. So, so I am probably very open in needing to hear  more  

Larry - about I love it. Paul basically was called to the Gentiles, not by his own  choice. He wanted to be called to the Jews. We all know he was seven so many  times, and felt the call there. And I don't get this because, you know, Paul  trained under the Sanhedrin. I thought he'd be called the Jews, yeah. But then  you get number two, Peter, who I thought would be called the Gentiles. He is the apostle to the Jews, and we all know that. Okay, so yet the first of the Paul type  apostle, we know what he's done. The Peter type apostle called to obviously, the more religious system. I'm amazed that leaders I meet in the body of Christ who  are called to their own denomination or religious system, who are called by God  this do an amazing work in those denominations. I call them Peter type apostles. 

Henry - You know, I buy that because I have seen people who will I know the  pastor at the church I have attended here in Grand Haven, the beautiful things  he's called to these believers he tirelessly, right, is working to grow. Is powerful.  So,  

Larry - honestly, is awesome, yeah. So Peter number three, either Timothy type  apostle. Timothy, obviously wasn't. He was more of a pastoral apostle he was in  Paul's apostolic team, right? Yeah, we know that. And I have, there's people on  

the teams where I serve in leadership, and they have this gift. They are better  pastors to pastors than I am. Oh, yeah, and they do a great job with so when we raise up leaders all the world and apostolic teams and councils, because we  have a key apostolic leaders, usually more of a Paul type apostle thinking,  expansion and growth planning, and then others who just love work with  leaders, helping leaders. They serve on his team. That, to me, is a Timothy type  apostle.  

Henry - So, so in this case, they're actually specifically raising up and finding  pastor types to equip them for more ministry.  

Larry - They are apostolic leaders who are working with pastors, helping them  be more apostolic. Gotcha. Yeah, helping them fulfill their call. So therefore  fathers and mothers to pastors, elders call them, 

Henry - gotcha? Okay, very good.  

Larry - The fourth category, I liked it, okay, is, and I didn't get this out of anybody, just very pragmatic, is the Titus type apostle. We all know Paul sailing to Crete.  He is what I would call a regional apostle. Okay, so he had a region of the world  he's responsible for. He went there to set things in order, ordain elders in every  church, we all know 1:5, that's the Titus type apostle, my perspective. So  

Henry - that person's sort of dealing with structure issues, looking for who the  leaders be, yes, but having  

Larry - a sense responsibility for a region, yeah, or a state, for a province, for a  nation. Okay, okay, okay.  

Henry - I met those. I've met people like that. Just, I just love our county. Yes,  you know, I mean, I drive down the street county you got in. I prayed for, you  know, it's Meyer road and Meyer road, and then I go to Miller road and pray for  Miller road. And I. Go down, you know, Butler road and pray, there you go. Yeah, be there. Okay,  

Larry - then you've got, I have down the James type apostle okay. I am  convinced that many of America, or other nations, mega churches, the leaders  who lead those, have this breadth of understanding and apostolic call, right? My  friend Samuel Smucker as pastor for 30 some years, almost 40 years a church  called Worship Center in Lancaster, Pennsylvania. They have touched over 100  nations. His life is the nation's and yet he he carries, he carries an authority in  our amazing he has an apostolic call. They call him pastor Sam. He's, I believe  he's an apostle, right? See, so I believe not all, but some of our the leaders of  larger works, even larger ministries,  

Henry - yeah, have this like a mega church, be a I think, I think  

Larry - so. When they had the Jerusalem council, they came back in Acts 15,  who stood up and gave the verdict, James, he was a respected leader in  Jerusalem,  

Henry - right? A lot of times you'll see that in denominations, they'll have their  synods, and there are certain people who there's no question they're like the  James apostle. Now, in mainline churches, they would never call themselves  about oh, no, I know, but their function is to make decisions about international  

impact. They love that. They get together for that. They want to be elected for 

those synodical boards, those meetings, because they want to make an impact  in there. So it's not just a local church, it's also a network of churches in  denominations, in Methodism. You see that too. Where you have, you have, like  some of these bishops I've seen, who so care about fitting the right person  exactly in that situation. Yeah,  

Larry - we talked about number six, Apollos. Have apostle ready? And Apollos, I  would call it teaching apostle, yeah, okay. And he's called an apostle of  Scripture. He served as an apostle, and yet he seemed to be a teacher. Of  course, Priscilla especially, and Aquila out discipled him. Then you have the  Luke type apostle. Now, you know Luke. Luke was a physician. He's kind of a  marketplace upon this is okay if people don't agree with it. But Luke, you know,  praise God for Luke, he had the book of Luke, the book of Acts. He was, he was just there, and  

Henry - I he was, he writes to, he's taking the canon of Jesus, life in the apostle  Paul, early church, yep, and He's researching it thoroughly, right? So that  audience, yes, who does not know God would be able to know Christ. Wonderful thing that happened in the resurrection.  

Larry - So anyway, I think I would, I would call him more of a marketplace  apostle. That's my perspective. Then the Barnabas type apostle. Barnabas was  The Networker. He, you know, when Saul and then later Paul, was kind of at  odds with all the apostles. He brought him in. He's the one who brought him  down to Antioch. He was, he was the networker and and I knew people like this  in the body of Christ. They have a stature in the body of Christ. They cross  denominational lines. They bring people together, networking apostle. And we  would both know people like that, yeah. Then you have the Silas type apostle,  and he was a real support to Paul. I mean, he was just Paul's right hands. And a lot of, of course, you know, a lot of the letters, the epistles, written like Paul's  Chief of Staff apostle. He was, he really was, yeah, and so it's a different type of  role. In the last one is the John type apostle. You know, the only way to  characterize John, the apostle of love, you know. And there are people that I  meet in the body of Christ like that, and they also build bridges, but they're just,  you know, there's a stature that they have, there's there's a breadth of revelation that they have, and there's an authority that they carry from the Lord. And I don't know how else to characterize them, or this John roll, except say he's just an  apostle of love who somehow he loves the body of Christ, He loves the  kingdom, he loves leaders, and he brings them together.  

Henry - But I have a couple more reflections on John, because I never really put John as how you're defining apostles here. But actually there is a great story of 

Polycarp in the early church. Okay, so here's a guy who, Justin Martyr, talks  about him the martyrdom of Polycarp. And Polycarp mentions that He's baptized by the apostle John. So He's an old man, and he says at the end of his life, and  Polycarp was a person who knew how to love, so the deposit of the apostle of  love comes in this person and strongly asking for forgiveness on the persecutors Polycarp died, and Justin Martyr talks about how this old man, like John was an  old man. So it's like, you know, you ever had that shake my hand? I shook the  hand of the man who shook the hand of Teddy Roosevelt, yeah, like an 80 year  old guy, a paper boy. He told me that once, yeah, you know, you have that with  you. John, that whole, like the the apocalypse, Revelations written, and he's  caring about the longevity. The Lord gives them vision of all that. So I never  really thought of it as apostle. But he truly was an apostle. Maybe he was the  apostle of the martyrs, even though he was the only one not to martyr that could be because, you know, all the other ones had untimely, earlier deaths. He lives  on, and actually he is the apostle to the martyrs, because Revelation is about  don't give up. So maybe that's a little nuance to add on him. He says Justin  Martyr. Talk about Polycarp martyrdom. And so maybe he is also like today,  when we deal with like they're saying 70,000 people were killed for Christ. So  maybe we add on John, the apostle to the martyrs. Yeah. So  

Larry - there you have it, 10 different types of apostles. And do you want to ask  me any questions yet about house church let's go  

Henry - to the next session, because this, I'm full on this session, Apostle one  thing I just kind of close on the apostle thing. I think it's a little disruptive for  much of the existing organized church, because for 1000s of years, the  apostolic. This idea of you know apostle means sending, you know, or you know it means the idea of messenger. What is it? The essence of the apostle? Just  sent one. Sent one. Okay, so I think that's a change in paradigm. And do you get pushback on that? Well,  

Larry - there's definitely push back in different parts of body of Christ, even  today, I don't say, Well, I'm an apostle. I'd say I'm an apostolic leader. It's a bit  softer. Yeah, I don't need that. No, I tell people, these are not titles, right? These  are gifts or anointing that God gives. So you don't have to tell anybody who you  are, what you are, right? Just go and love Jesus. Love people do use the gift  God's given you and let God get  

Henry - Have you felt in you've observed any? I come from a background where  we don't even have never used apostles, so I have, like, naive, joyful things  about you know, he could be ordained as an apostle network. What's the danger of that? Have you seen people abuse that I have okay? I know, and I think it's an

important thing, yeah, because we're gonna have sort of, like, if to for someone  to be ordained as an apostle through the CLI network, you're gonna have to be  one who actually has fruit of raising up leaders and house church leaders and or you will not be  

Larry - a father in the LORD and by the Lord, you need to have a servant heart  and all this. Here's the abuse that I've seen, okay, in certain parts of the body  Christ, in certain denominations, certain parts of the world, I have found those  who said, say, I am the apostle and it's dictatorial leadership, you do what I say.  And some others saying, I'm the apostle that carries an authority that you're  have your freedom to obey God. You need to do what I say you should do. 

Henry - So okay, so now we go back to this critique of the mainline churches  that the word love.  

Larry - Yeah. So I am the apostle, at least for that group, he would say, I know.  

Henry - But the idea here is that we so really that word apostle is a very servant  leader who stands in the gap, who makes something happen, and not  somebody who wants some title, because Paul is apostle, I'm an apostle. It's  

Larry - not a title or even a position. Is simply a servant call from God. Okay?  I've said many times. I said, if I when I meet someone and I get pushed back on  this, but I think it's true. Okay, when I meet someone and they have apostle on  their business card, in most cases, they're not really, yeah, I think they're trying  to be something good that they're really not, because that word somehow gives  them this sense of authority that. And it is my opinion that right, really, if they  have a servant attitude, they don't need that on the business card. Yeah,  

Henry - careful well, and I think that to reflect at CLI, everyone's ordained in the  order of a deacon, a servant, and then if they want to be upgraded elder, they  can, but they're not ordained at their essence as an apostle, it will always still be a deacon. That's the apostle functions. Yeah, okay, no, very good. Okay, thank  you. This was extremely insightful. We have the kind of reformed and cross  pollination. You know, we're Pentecostal and we're loving it, and this was a very  blessing, a blessing to us all.  

Larry - Thank you so much.