Henry - You know, I want to interview Larry in this next session. Now he's written a bunch of material, and I believe you can read the material about the  grassroots movement, about different types of church, your story, I'm sure it's all  there in writing, but I like this concept of 10,000 hours that Malcolm Gladwell  talks about in, you know, in the outlier, I sure, sure. And every time I meet  someone like Larry, who's done stuff, been around the block, been battle tested. Who's faced many trials, who it's like I today. I feel this way. It's like here  founding CLI, if I think about the whole journey, I think about all the failures, like,  by God's grace, we failed forward. I think about all that, and then I meet you who founded something as well. And you know, for the last decades, we've been in  the trenches, and now we're getting old too. I comfort myself with the fact that  you are only I am 11 years younger. I comfort your best days are I get that, I  stayed on that. But when I meet you, I am very inspired. As you look back at  from the early days to now what, what one of the most difficult things dealt with.  

Larry - Well, the most difficult thing, I think, that I dealt with was when I realized I had given 1000s of hours to disciple and trained leaders that I loved dearly and  during a very difficult time in our leadership after I was leading this new work,  about 10 to 12 years, I realized that I had no fathers in life. I had no one to turn  to, and some of these good friends started to really question some things in my  life. Okay, it really never even believed things were said about me. I mean, I had a leader, someone I love dearly, who had written a letter, sent it to many of our  leaders and basically said, Larry Kreider is unteachable, just went down, get  down the line. That's an integrity issue for me. Being teachable is extremely  important. Yeah. So anyway, he writes this letter, and then, you know, he leaves  our church, and a bunch of people leave and say, there must be something  wrong with Larry. I remember some some people coming and said, We just wish we knew what was wrong with you. Yeah. And in fact, I remember another  leader saying, We know there's something wrong with you, we just don't know  what it is. I'm gonna lead the search right. I know there's something wrong, I still  don't know what it is, right? And so, and all this stuff happens. Well, about 15  years later, this same leader came back to me, and he said, he said, Did I do  anything that was hurtful to you? And I said, Well, there's one thing I said, I  forgiven you. It's over. Remember the time you wrote that letter. He said, What  letter? I explained the letter, he said, I wrote that. I said, Yeah, he wrote the  letter. He said, I don't remember that letter. He said, In fact, I don't even believe  that. I don't even believe you are teachable, unteachable. But for 15 years, we're carrying all this up. It was just spiritual warfare, you know? It was making me  into the leader God called me to be, and I understand other leaders now. I The  leader just a couple days ago, and said things going on our church and people  leaving, and I don't know what to do. Well, I understand that now, because  you've been through the fire and somehow you come out the other side with 

grace to help other people.  

Henry - So what are the four ways that you made it through the fire when you  were attacked like that?  

Larry - Well, I think the first way is I had to come to the place where I realized  that all that matters, I'm loved by Jesus, God the Father loves me. It was here,  yeah, okay, Chris, you know, I was a people pleaser, yeah.  

Henry - Oftentimes we want to please God. We want to please. We understand  that. Okay, we get that.  

Larry - That was, that was, I think was number one. Number two is a revelation  of the grace of God, that whatever happened, God's grace will carry me through, and I needed that revelation of the grace of God. The third area was that I had a  purpose in my heart, that I would not pick up an offense, and that I would not in  any way allow root of bitterness Hebrews 12:15 to spring up, because it wouldn't necessarily defile me. He would defile my family. My own kids were affected by  one of my daughters that I don't believe this. How do people say these things  about my dad? You know? And there's affecting my family. And so I think I really  get free from from that, that whole area of finding forgiveness, freedom. And  forgiving and walking in freely, released. And I think, I think the the last area was I, I couldn't quit on the vision God gave, yeah, because vision propels us  forward. And God gave us a vision to see his church building, the nation of the  world. And I got it back at Henry, I'm so glad I didn't quit. Yeah, this is the best  time of my life. I mean, my walk with Jesus, my walk with my wife, my walk with  my kids and my family, the leaders I work with are amazing. You've met Brian,  they're amazing leaders throughout the world, and I feel very, very blessed, but  we had to walk through those times, and God gave grace in the midst of it.  

Henry - Do you feel you believe that somebody who is broken can do a house  church? Is there a room if someone has been beat up, maybe in the business  world or through family dysfunctions and sin and organizationally? Sure? You  

know, do you have you seen broken people come back and be part of this  house church?  

Larry – I sure have, because when we're broken and God gives us grace and  fixes us, it's like a bone that's been broken, that bone is stronger at that point  where it's healed than it was before it was broken. Yeah, and some of the best  house church leaders I know are those who were broken, pastors who were  broken, business leaders who were broken, those in marriages that were  broken, those in family situations that were broken. And I've said many, many 

times privately and publicly, I find there's many spiritual fathers, spiritual  mothers, who can lead house churches, who've had problems in their own  family, and the devil tells them, well, look at your daughter, look at your son.  Look what's happened here. There's no way that God could ever use you, and  that's a lie from the pit of hell. In fact, I find persons who've experienced those  things will be more effective because they'll understand the grace of God, the  mercy of God. They'll understand the forgiveness of God. They'll understand  disappointment, and they'll understand people going through the same things,  yeah,  

Henry - if you look at enthusiasm, the Utopian enthusiasm, and the struggled to  gain enthusiasm, where you've got attacked by the evil one. You know, there it  seems like enthusiasm and zeal, and there's like different nuances to that, even  if you think about planting a house church, I want you to comment on that a little  bit, because, you know, if you look at your life, I mean, I know for myself, I've  gone through Utopia phases where I just want to build, you know, and then I find that disappointment comes along, and how do you keep your enthusiasm and  

Larry - well, that's what we need people in our lives. We need you can't listen to  everyone, no, but excuse me, man, you're crazy if you do, but you listen to a few people. And we need people in our lives, so we know love us and believe in us.  

That's what we need, spiritual fathers. That's where I need peers in our lives,  and that's what we need people in life who will speak the truth of love to us, but  we know they have our best interests at heart. And then I find then I can be  picked up from the heap of rubble that I find myself in, and because I know  God's for me, I know they're for me, and then I can move, hey, to the next thing  God has for me. Okay,  

Henry - so I'm gonna ask you some questions. Is it possible to have a small  group in the inner city that is really thriving in the inner city, United States, where there's blight, and someone's called to do this? I mean, where they're maybe the fathers have left the home. A lot of single moms can be. Is it possible that  somebody's gonna plant a house church there?  

Larry – It's more than possible. Now, a lot of our experience has been more of  rural America, okay, our experience, because I'm a rural America. Rural America has been blighted by, oh,  

Henry - I mean, yeah, we're talking there. I'm talking in a blighted area in the  inner city. Oh, yeah, you've seen a movement like this. I mean, no holy  buildings, the holy man. Yes, you're talking relationships. Is that possible? It is  possible somebody out there call to 

Larry - this and do this, and it's now happening throughout our nation,  happening. Already seen one. I can give you some examples of different parts of United States, whether these house church networks were starting a lot of those initial, initial stages. How about where it's happening? Okay, I sure can. I can  show you West Coast, East Coast in between. Yeah, really. Okay.  

Henry - What about the whole political rancor of our country right now? If you  look at our country in the United States, you know, I imagine in places like  Africa, there's so much polarization in Europe and so forth. And in Christianity,  there's a news story I read that Christianity is considered like a negative by a  large percentage of our country now. Given this kind of polarizing world, if house church is going to thrive in that,  

Larry – I think it will thrive in that, because house church is not latching on to the religious system per se. House church is common, ordinary people and who I've got a hold of, who God is, and God is calling their lives, and once just wants to  help people, I mean true houses, you got to help people who are hurting or  struggling or impoverished. That's going to be the call. That's what you want to  do.  

Henry - Now, earlier, I was listening to one of your presentations. You mentioned about how there's some of the dangers, like you can have a arrogant leader  becomes like the pulpit villain. How do you guard against that? Where you know where you where you are self aware that you are going to stay in that path of  servanthood?  

Larry - Well, I think we must have account outside accountability in our lives. I  sat in a restaurant a few years ago with a leader of a large movement, a global  movement, okay? He asked me to speak at his conference. And I said this  inside, this concern in my heart, that this man was being an autocratic leader,  yeah. And so I said to him, who can fire you? Who do you have that can speak  into your life? So really, no one right now. And you know, within months, the  entire movement went to nothing. They had all kinds of churches, and the  nations went to nothing because he was he made some decisions that were not  biblical decisions, and had no one to hold them accountable. So I tell house  church leaders, or apostolic leaders, whatever we all need, people that we trust  will speak into our lives and will speak the truth and love to us. And so if you're  going to plant a house church, you need to have be accountable to someone, to  a group somewhere, because none of us, there's none of us, that are at a place  where we couldn't fall because of the devil and the devil's a liar. 

Henry - One of the things I want you to comment about our ordination  understanding so we understand ordination as being like in the early church, it  was the commending someone else Yes. Recognized yes, that you had a  calling, that you had a holy life to work, walk in that calling, and that you had  gifts from ministry, that someone else noticed it. Yes. Okay, so we also believe  that at Christian leaders institute that there are three recommendations if you're  married, one from your spouse and Timothy 2 about he began me on your own,  so they have to be that spouse thing, and also two other recommendations. Now here's what's interesting. We find that it's very easy to get two  recommendations, but the third one is difficult. We also find that we honor the  fact that three are needed, because there is something about the third one by  which seems to show that I am accountable. I care that I'm in relationship with  others now as somebody outside of our culture, our culture, yeah, what do you  think about that?  

Larry – I think it's fantastic. I think three is the right amount. I think having a  spouse as one of the three is proper. Is right. I think a scriptural and I think it's  important, because ordination, as we understand it, and in agreement with you,  is really God's one who calls ordained people from ministry, but we need that  affirmation from others in the body of Christ, who see that for the purpose of  accountability. So we it keeps us from pitfalls. And I think there's great wisdom in what you're doing with CLI  

Henry - now what I like that I've noticed to what you're doing, which your  ministry has plowed the way on, is your apostolic leadership team. And I think  that's very cross pollinating to us as we develop this, these house church  ordination structures of like a house church starter we're going to be doing like  that. It's almost like a local Deacon and then a officiant who will teach how to do  weddings and funerals, a little bit more of that. People who are ordinary local  Christians, and then house church pastors have more training. And then even a  house church, Apostle whose function to start new churches. You know, you're  not an apostle unless you're actually doing it right? Exactly,  

Larry - exactly. The proof is in the pudding, right? Exactly.  

Henry - So what we're working  

Larry - Paul said, you the proof of my apostleship,  

Henry - exactly, right? So what we're working on too. Is then to have, like  support, support for planting house churches, being in connection, relational,  you know, do various things, and one of them is the connection to dove in that, 

like, after people get their ordination, here you're welcoming that they can check  you out. Out your website,  

Larry - and we'll talk, we can talk more about that in another setting. Yeah, but  we're a relational movement, and we love the partnership we have with you,  which you're doing in training in the nations, is just a God thing for this  generation. You've only begun to see what God is going to do through CLI, I am  convinced of that in my heart, my spirit, and wait, you know, we're a relational  movement. We're a growing movement, relationally worldwide. We have  apostolic teams all over the world. So I think there's times we'll cross paths, oh  yeah, and we'll work together and help one another have our own strings of  ministry. But we're in the kingdom. There's a kingdom, and 

Henry - that's what the early church looked like, exactly. You know? Well, this  was a great conversation. I especially liked the thought that ordinary people,  even if you're broken by the grace that God can still plant a house church,  exactly, and they can still take the next step and believe that God has something for That's correct. Okay, amen, 



最后修改: 2024年10月7日 星期一 07:46