Video Transcript: Lesson 27 - Final Discussion

Henry Reyenga - It's amazing that we could think about all these subjects,  about, can we know that God is real? What is the philosophy of religion? What  are thoughts that you probably never thought of before? And now we've had this amazing class, and we're wrapping up in kind of a last discussion. And Dr  Clouser, I want to thank you for helping us out and making us be stretched and  think through a lot of these things. And Bob that you're here as well, and you  were a great participant in this class. You're our one of our deans here, so I am  you enjoying it too, right? Oh,  

Bob Zomermaand - I absolutely love this. Right?  

Henry Reyenga - Exactly. So, you know, I thought maybe just wrap up. We can  talk about the class, talk about some concluding thoughts and ideas. So Bob,  what say you took you kind of hear from those platform, the thoughts you have,  any questions you want to raise, the  

Bob Zomermaand - one of the thoughts I have about it is that I think it is so  important for a person who's going to be involved in ministry of any kind,  whether it just be ministry to my own children, I need to understand something  about why I think God is real, right? Because with some of the things that I  know, I my wife and I had four children, and already, when they were, like, three, they start asking about God, yeah, and, and it wasn't because we were, you  know, hounding them on it. It just kind of arises and, and it is, it is wonderful to  see, but then I need to know what I'm going to say. And when you're involved in  ministry, it helps to be able to train parents of how to raise their children in the  faith. That's a big deal. And I think this equips us as those who are Christian  leaders, to be able to help others, and because passing it on to the next  generation is huge, yes, and I think this is just wonderful. One of the things I  would like to ask Dr Clouser about is when I am as a pastor trying to help  someone else understand that God is real, and this person has experienced  some tragedy, and they've experienced some euphoric experiences, and and  yet they come to the point and they say, but I don't think that was God in a wit  Where Where should I begin with, with that, that faith experience, you were  experiment you were talking about in the last I  

Dr. Clouser - think so. I think if they say I had this really strange experience, but I didn't experience it as God, then that's probably right. Okay, yeah, I think that  what self evident is that is God. That's that's what we get when in encounter with his word. It's like saying that in when we see a tree, it's self evident to us that we have this this we see this image, and we see this object, what we can't say is,  well, we see the object about what self evident is the trunk and the branches  and the colors, but not that it exists. No, no, the existence comes with it, right? 

It's real. That's part of our pretheoretical self evidence in encountering the world  around us. And some people have done that. I mean, the history of philosophy,  there are probably people going to view this that know about people have done  that. Well, what's self evident is just the sensory image you know, and you don't  know that that's real. That's what comes with it. And if you dismiss it, you're not  

going to get it back, because that's the only way we do know it. And there's no  proof that that the tree conceived of as just our image also exists. That's true of  a lot of things, and I quoted George Mavodes at the end about theology, but he  also gives a wonderfully illuminating example that I've always liked, if you look  through a reflecting telescope at the moon, you can see that as the surface of  the moon. Oh, I'm seeing the surface of the moon. It's also, of course, a nickel  sized object on the on the mirror. And if I have that in my mind, that's what I see. I can look at that and see it as an image on the mirror, or I can look at it and say, I'm seeing the moon. And the same thing is true with the Scripture. You can you  can read that, and you can say, Okay, this is what some ancient Jews believed.  So what? Or you can experience through that, the very reality that they're talking about God. It depends on how you look, how you look at it. But it's not that one  of. Is true and the other is false. You know, it's not that this is really only an  image on the mirror, and it's not only the moon, but I get an increased vision of  it. You'll get a better view of it.  

Henry Reyenga - I want to talk about like born again in light of that. And  because I see so many people use that word, that thought or even like they  were living one life, and they recognized God as becoming self evident, turning  them all around. And we use, they, we choose, the phrase they were born again. And we, of course, see it in John 3, yeah, but this discussion born again,  

Dr. Clouser - yeah? Well, it's one of the metaphors that Jesus uses. In fact, it  was a Jewish metaphor for a pagan becoming a Jew, really. And then Jesus  uses it to Jews. He's saying to them, something lacking here, because there's a  new edition of the covenant. And I have now come to be prophet and priest and  sacrifice for the Covenant, the New Covenant. So you need to be born too. And  so the guy he says it to is, well, I can't be born over again. That's silly. And Jesus says, No, of course, it means you have to be born, not only naturally, but of the  Spirit of God, not just of water, but of spirit. A lot of Christians use it as a kind of  test phrase, or something, not really a Christian, unless you say you were born  again. And I touched on this earlier, when I compared belief in God to the belief  in the axiom of equals, right? For some people, it really is a startling episode  that they can put their finger on and date their belief from. And for others, they  were a raised Christian, so there's, there is no date like that, yeah, but I can  remember, for the axiom that there was a specific time and place the beginning  of my geometry class when the teacher said, we use axioms such as, things 

equal the same thing or equal each other. And I thought, Oh, that's good. I never thought of that. But it doesn't matter whether you have an episode you can put  your finger on or not. What matters is whether your heart's with God, whether  you really believe in the depth of your being and love. Try to love God with all  your heart, soul, mind and strength. That's what's important.  

Henry Reyenga - You know, follow up on that is we have many Pentecostal  charismatic believers throughout the world and and so the born again, but many  experience like filling of the Holy Spirit, or a deeper filling of the Holy Spirit in  some of our ancient faith ministry, students that are that go to Catholic or  Anglican churches, for instance, and we also hear the filling of the Holy Spirit,  that's right now. How does that connect to what we were just talking about, like  born again and then filling more filling of the Holy Spirit, deepening what is that?  

Dr. Clouser - Yes, that's a progress in the Christian life. That's what we're we're  all trying to do, is in our fellowship and our walk with God. And I think it's what  Peter meant when he talks about our being partakers of the divine nature. He  doesn't mean by that, that we become self existent, part of the self existent  being of God, but he means that that nature of God, which God revealed in the  person of Jesus Christ, is the kind of nature, kind of person we strive to be, and  eventually will be made in His image. We shall be like Him, and so on. Those  promises. That's part of that, and it does happen by God's Spirit. The Orthodox  Church calls this Theosis, becoming like the one who is God by participating in  the being, taking on the nature of Christ. And it's interesting, both Luther and  Calvin wrote essays affirming that right and giving the scripture.  

Henry Reyenga - What about like tongues? And, you know, again, we're, what  about like sign, gifts? What about, you know, things that are manifestations, or  visions and and all of that. And again, I know we're we know that all things are  

within the Word of God, and yes, the Bible, you know, but these sort of  happenings that appear as if God is entering our lives as leaders in a special  

Dr. Clouser - and it can very well be those things happen. There's no question. I think the only danger is that someone again does with them what some people  do with born again. Unless you use that language, you're not really Christian.  Unless you spoke in tongues, you're not real well, that's not true either. So  

Henry Reyenga - many tongues and they are called that's like. And meaner.  Some have tongue, some  

Dr. Clouser - ones who do it may do that by the Spirit of God, but we have to  remember that those gifts given to the apostles right after Christ ascended were 

in order to preach the gospel, there was a practical purpose and value to that  that was really crucial to the spread of the spread of the gospel. And if we just  do this because, whoopee, look what I can do that that doesn't go very far. And  so I wouldn't deny them at all. They're as real as can be. And it may be very  encouraging to a particular believer to have that experience, encourage them  again to be it confirms that they're God's people. Yeah, and should encourage  them to do God's work. Yeah, sure,  

Henry Reyenga - not compare themselves to others, and not compare others to myself.  

Dr. Clouser - But doesn't make me better than anybody else. 

Henry Reyenga - Yeah, one more follow up, and then Bob, I'm not you go. I'm  on a train. I'm not roll. So now we have at the personal level. Now what we're  praying for, and we have experienced in history, is revivals, where now the self  evident, irresistible, self evident presence of God raises up a generation, or  renews a generation, or brings revival to the earth. And there's different  manifestations over the time. And I know the thing that I pray for, and I believe  that you pray for, is that we see revival happening in our time, everywhere in the earth. So that's a manifestation that's sort of a corporate transparent or a  corporate self evidency, or something like that, or what is, yeah, and we can't  make God do that.  

Dr. Clouser - No, we can't. We will do that. Yeah, we can pray that he will. And  we can do whatever we can to join in that. You know, we we pray that every  Sunday, Thy kingdom come, thy will be done. We want to work for God's  kingdom and see it spread.  

Henry Reyenga - What is that when there is that, that Zeitgeist revival? What is  that about that? I mean, I have told me what you say. Well, I do believe that God has a plan of redemption that sometimes he knows we don't know, and  sometimes we're at places where there's just like in the Bible, you see times  where things settle down, and then, like the Judges, a new king comes. And  there's but in the New Testament now, in Acts and Pentecost, you know now the  manifestation of the Holy Spirit has been poured out. But there seems to be  times when there's decline, whether it's in the church in history, and then there's  a spark. And you know the word is, you know, Gutenberg Press, and you know  the factors related to that which sort of precipitated the Reformation. And you  know there seems to be like times when, and I believe that's true. I believe, with  my heart in my soul, that this raising up of 1000s, hundreds of 1000s, of  Christian leaders, where the training is now available, people can get the 

training. They can be leaders grounded in the Word of God that there, there  could well be, and we can't know it for sure, but from my early read I see the  lives of these Christian leaders that are being raised up and the amazing things  that are happening their life, and that's at personal levels. Many times I believe  that I hope and I pray that zeitgeist of you know, a age of proclaiming the gospel to all nations occur even beyond our lives. So that's how I started weed out  

Dr. Clouser - no quarrel whatever with that, especially in the United States,  religious fervor has always been cyclical. It's high at the time when the Pilgrims  first come, and then the church just seemed to go dead, yeah. And then there's  this great awakening in the early 1700s Jonathan Edwards, it's usually taken to  have started with his preaching that famous sermon in Enfield, Connecticut in  1737, but it quickly spread. I mean, there was there was the seed bed. Was  there for it, yeah. And I think making the gospel available to as many people as  possible and educating them so that they can speak to as many people as  possible just can't be a wrong way to start. No,  

Henry Reyenga - I have to. Say that anyway, any other  

Bob Zomermaand - one of the things that I was just thinking about, it would be  to ask you in terms of your own personal life, as you you were talking about you  were raised in a very strict home and so on, yeah, and kind of anti intellectual. It  

Dr. Clouser - wasn't kind of, Oh, okay. It was significantly, it was a powerful  except for music, there was almost nothing of the arts, literature, philosophy that was was respected. Put it down, okay. Now,  

Bob Zomermaand - in my experience, as I was growing up in this, what I  wanted to try to ask you about, because I think this would relate to to at least  some of our students as well, when I was in high school, and I said I was going  to college and and I, and I had relatives who just mocked that idea, because  they said, all they're going to do is try to get you to not believe in God.  

Dr. Clouser - That's what my mother said to me when I got to junior high. She  said, You may hear some of your friends talk about college. I just thought I'd tell  you how we feel about that. We don't see why any Christian would go to college. It's just a place that ridicules your faith, and you get older and you will to go. We  won't try to stop you, but don't look to us to support it. And they didn't.  

Bob Zomermaand - Now, my parents were very supportive, even though that's  in in my in my broader family, it wasn't necessarily, so I see. But now here's what I wanted to ask you about. Then, what Christian value is there in getting a really 

good education? Because, see, our students are going to get training, and and  this, this particular courses, will be in a in a context of getting educated. Yeah,  what? What I mean. You got PhD, you know, and you studied really hard to get  there. And, and as I listened to you, and as I talked to you, were extremely well  read, and you remember an awful lot what what value is there in learning? 

Dr. Clouser - Okay? I'll answer that first. Okay, I want to supplement an answer  I gave earlier, when I named some of the things that were not present in my  home. I mentioned arts under the music and other things, but the main thing I  left out, the main thing was science. That's the enemy. I can remember coming  home from school in fourth grade, and I said to my mother, today, we learned  that the stars are huge bodies of gaseous matter that are so hot that they burn  brightly, and that's how we see that they're light. And she said, Oh, you don't  believe that do you like I had done something wrong. Why not? Well, don't you  think if that were true, the Bible would have told us? Now that is the epitome of  using the Bible as an encyclopedia, rather than the revelation of God's covenant of love. And of course, I didn't know to say that when I was in fourth grade, yeah, but I think that's a pity. Yes. Look, we can be culture bearers, even if we're not  culture formers, even if I don't make some contribution to the culture that leaves  it better off or different from the way it was when I found it, I can be a bearer of  that culture self consciously, and pick what is Christian and what is not, And and  bring the what I'll call the Christian reforming effect, to whatever it is I function  and I take part of party, and that's that's true, whether I do that as a parent,  whether I do that as a citizen, as an employee or an employer, as a member of a church, that life has many different sides, and unless I am well informed about  what's going on in all of those different sides, and I don't mean up with the  newsreels, I mean informed as the history, the points of view that people have  held, the arguments they've given for and against, and why somebody stands  where they do on something, then I'm not really equipped to meet people where  they are, if my goal is to present the gospel or my goal is to minister them in the  faith and encourage it, or just to understand things and be able to pass it on to  my children. Very good. Yeah.  

Bob Zomermaand - And so then the thought that came to my mind. Is it? What  you're saying is, for example, with the speaking in tongues at Acts, it was in  order to preach the good news. Sure  

Dr. Clouser - purpose. Paul emphasizes that because he says, Remember, you  don't just speak unless somebody translates it. Forget it. You got to know what  was said and what was said. He's assuming it's the gospel, yeah, yeah, yes.  And so then what we're doing is we're learning some of the language that is  necessary to present the gospel, sure, and that's another side, 

Bob Zomermaand - and our educational efforts are trying to help us to be  articulate in the culture? Yeah, yeah. One of the things that I've always, I've  always said kind of a is my my a verse that I apply to my life. He served the Lord in his generation, and then he died. But I want to serve the Lord in my  generation. It's hard, to hard to wish for more than that. I know, I know, but  that's, you know, I don't want to serve the Lord, you know, in 10 generations  back, I want to serve the Lord in my generation. But in order to understand my  generation, I need to understand that this generation has come from  somewhere.  

Dr. Clouser - Yes, and that's more needed now, because that information is so  many much more complex than it ever was before, and many sided. So you can  say, Well, I'm not a scientist. What do I care about? What's going on, but you  ought to be aware of what's going on. So I've subscribed to Scientific American  for over 30 years. You don't have to be a scientist to keep up with what's going  on and see where it's headed. Understand what somebody says if they appeal  to some theory in one of the sciences and and you can evaluate that as a  Christian. Yeah, that's the that's the point of it, of our next course, with the ones  going to be on the idea of a Christian philosophy, what should philosophy look  like if it's motivated and grounded on belief in God? So let's start by talking  about divinity beliefs, and then God is the right one, the true and living God,  Father, Son and Holy Spirit.  

Bob Zomermaand - Now, if you were, if you you were a professor over the  years in various schools. What? What was your experience relating with other  faculty?  

Dr. Clouser - Well, first of all, I found that there were more Christians on that  faculty than I ever suspected, and they were some of the best people on the  faculty and though I never became drinking buddies with any of them, mainly  because I lived 50 miles from the college where I taught, Okay, so once in a  

while, I had lunch or dinner with somebody, and we would have a beer or  something. But I know in moderation, of course, you wouldn't drink and drive.  No. That's right. That's right. And dry, so I never was. None of them became a  best friend or something. But there are people that I still, I am close to. We see  one once in a while, and one of them is the fellow who became chair of the  department when he arrived, and was chair when I retired, and my wife and I  still visit him. We're going to have him down this summer sometime. And he's a  naturalist. He says he doesn't look self evident to him, that God is real. He says,  You're right. Something has to be self existent. But whatever it is, I have a hard  time believing it cares about us. That's his hang up. 

Henry Reyenga - What do you say to him about that?  

Dr. Clouser - I said, you. I said, if, apart from scripture, that's exactly how it  would look if you didn't see the biblical message as the truth about God, from  God, that God really cares and offers us love, forgiveness and everlasting life.  You only find that an encounter with the Scripture. You don't find it anywhere  else you can come to the conclusion or something divine. You might even say  it's not anything in nature, right? He said to me, when I showed him that  argument, I finished with, well, now I don't know what to say. I always thought I  was, I was a naturalist, but I'm not. I can't be that naturalism is gone, but now, so now what am I? He keeps inviting me back to lecture in his classes, and last  October, I did two classes for him, but as I met two sections twice, right, in a  course called God, freedom and evil, or something like that, and and he wanted  my take on that, because it's not the usual one. And when I got done, he walked  out with me, we were going to lunch, and he said, I tell you. He said, you make it Christianity sound so reasonable. I'm embarrassed not to be a Christian. Yeah.  

Henry Reyenga - I think that's kind of neat, yeah, and I think that's a good  encouragement keep witnessing where we are. I have that same thing just  recently with a friend, and I use the self evidency thing, sort of when I went  down this trail is well, because this guy really believes that there's there must be 

a God to create everything. But why would those God care about us? So I said,  Well, if it's self evident that he made all this the Bible shows itself evident that if  the God of the universe were to show love to humans, what would he do? Well,  he would first of all utilize the structures that we would know. And in the Old  

Testament, there was the structure of sacrifice. It was in all religions practically,  there was sacrifice, one life for another. Then Jesus even says Greater love has  no one than this to give his life for his friends. Okay, so there is a self evidencing truth. And I said to this guy, Hey, would you take a bullet for your wife? Yeah, I  sure would. Okay. So, self evidently, you would actually sacrifice yourself for  your wife, and it's just in the culture. How do we show what love is? Okay? So  now, if there's a God of the universe and wanted to show us love. Well, first you  have to become like one of us, because he's got so there is, oh, Jesus is born of a virgin, and you might call a virgin. Yeah, you have about that. But hey, it's  more than that. Is God seriously becoming one like us in Jesus Christ?  

Dr. Clouser - But there's a reason for that. I'm sorry, same way you're talking  about it seems reasonable, you know, but almost everywhere throughout the  ancient world, there were the these myths about people who were offspring of  gods, right? And they were always virgin born, see? So if you were to call  attention to somebody who really is the Son of God, right? Here's, well, 

everybody believes that would be virgin. Okay, let's right  

Henry Reyenga - again. It just bolsters the argument. So now it comes down to, is like, Okay, so in the so Jesus lives, he dies. He's a sacrificial lamb that, you  know, he takes the bullet, you know, like, there's a popular song that this person  really liked, you know, I would take a blade for you. And it's like, you know? And  it's like, okay, so we get all that. So Jesus takes the bullet for us, and he shows  the great love of God, and then, but more, he rises from the dead because he  knows our condition. Now, if there's a God in the universe, and you see him in  beautiful all creation, it would also make sense, if he wanted to show his love to  us, he would somehow stoop down into our world so that we could come to his  world. And it was really interesting, this guy said, you know, that is really like  your friend. You're  

Bob Zomermaand - like, well, you know, this is embarrassing.  

Henry Reyenga - But again, it says, Why do you have to take to read the word,  get into the story, get into the narrative. And does the Holy Spirit of God show  up? And that God,  

Dr. Clouser - so it has its reasonable side as well as its what side, the all  powerful creator who brought the universe into existence, right? Cares about  me. Wait a minute, right? Yeah, and CS Lewis commented one time how  unlikely that seems, yeah. But how unlikely it is doesn't matter, right? That's true. I made that I gave did that on one of the sessions we had, I mentioned that one  time, like my son was away, and he for a while in Europe, and his work, and he  was looking at a shop for something to bring home to his boys. And he found  these cute little chocolate mice, and he bought them, put them in a box, and  carried them on the airplane because they wouldn't get smashed. And he got  home, and he comes to the door, he says, boys, I'm home, and I have a treat for you. And they came out and said, Boy, before you show us what it is, we want to show you what we made you. And they went to the kitchen and brought out a  tray of chocolate mice. Now I don't know how likely that is. I imagine it's  astronomically improbable, yeah, but it doesn't matter if it's the truth, its  probabilities are irrelevant, yeah,  

Henry Reyenga - yeah. Well, good, okay, we'll wrap this up again. What a great  course. I think what we what we've seen, what we've heard, just boosters. The  fact that, you know, God loves this world we're is clear, but it still is clear through the eyes of faith, belief, yes and and to be transparent. It and all our beliefs, you  know, and because everyone has a religious conviction, yes, and they may not  be transparent about it

Dr. Clouser - Faith is an irrational it means a divinity. Belief is self evident to  someone right, right, and  

Henry Reyenga - it adds a fact to like, when we talk about unbelief out there or  disbelief, or we talk to our friends or neighbors or in the marketplace and  families, and that we don't have an insecure faith that we're just holding on to.  It's deeply embedded, and it's like an oak tree planted by streams of water,  

Bob Zomermaand - and it will produce its fruit Exactly.  

Henry Reyenga - And what a time to be alive. I tell you this again. Thanks for  this class. But this is a time to be alive. You get to be in a time of history where  people are confused, where people are looking for answers. And you have been called by God to be an ambassador of Christ, of faith, of life, of resurrection  power, of rescuing those who in a dark age are blind, and you need to be part of that humbly as a servant. God has called you for this, and I am so glad that you  took the time to take this class, and may God bless you and keep you