Audio Transcript: Interview w/ Dr. Amy Sherman: "Public Discipleship in the Marketplace"

Darren Shearer - Welcome back to the theology of business podcast. I'm your  host, Darren Shearer, author of the marketplace Christian and marketing like  Jesus, and this is a show that helps marketplace Christians to partner with God  in business, to help you make disciples of your coworkers, your company and  your industry, give more teachings and interviews like the one you're about to  hear at theologyofbusiness.com this interview with Amy Sherman you're about  to hear on the subject of public discipleship in the marketplace was recorded in  the midst of the violent race riots that were happening in Charlottesville, Virginia, just a few weeks ago from the time of this recording. And in fact, Amy lives in  Charlottesville, the racism and hatred we saw on display during those protests  reminds us just how much work the people of God need to do to accurately  represent Jesus to our world. And as I record this just a few weeks later, my own city of Houston, Texas has been faced with a different kind of adversity. We were just hit with Hurricane Harvey, as you're probably aware if you've been watching  the news lately, which has earned the title of the costliest natural disaster in the  history of the United States. Within just a few days, our city was pounded by  trillions of gallons of rain, the damage has indeed been catastrophic. 10s of  1000s of homes and hundreds of 1000s of automobiles were destroyed in our  city alone, and many other cities and towns along the Texas coast were also  devastated by the storm, and especially by the flooding, whether it's making  phone calls for fundraising, helping with demolition and people's flooded homes, serving food at a local shelter, or any of the other countless jobs that need to be  filled right now, the people in our city are so desperate for help that they don't  care who provides it. As I write this I actually have an evacuees cat sitting next  to me, because this particular cat needed a temporary home because her home  got totally destroyed, and I can still feel the sheet rock particles in my throat from helping to remove wet sheet rock from a family's home that had water all the  way to the ceiling of their Living room. It's all hands on deck here in Houston, all  12,000 members of the Texas National Guard were activated to bring relief to  our city and to other areas along the Texas coast. And for the first time in any  church I've ever attended, this past Sunday, my pastor asked the entire  congregation of more than 1000 people raise their right hands and say, I am  hereby ordained as a pastor in the Church of Jesus Christ. I encourage you that  no matter what kind of work you're doing for the Lord, whether it's helping  people who have been devastated by a natural disaster, building racial unity and your community selling products and services that reveal the glory of God, and  no matter how much you get paid for doing it, or even if you get paid for doing it, that work matters to the Lord, you may be the only person who can reveal the  love and message of Jesus to those people you work with and serve and that  place where you're serving and creating value during the week is the best place  to share that message. I want to ask you to do something right now that you  may have never done before, whether you're driving in your car, walking the 

dog, or sitting on your couch listening to this, raise your right hand and repeat  this after me. I am hereby ordained and activated as a minister of the love and  message of Jesus Christ to those around me. And you might not be taking me  

seriously right now, but I want you to really do it. Raise your right hand and  repeat this after me. I am hereby ordained and activated as a minister of the  love and message of Jesus Christ to those around me, like the Texas National  Guard, you are hereby activated to respond to the needs around you as the  hands and feet of Jesus and like the congregation of my at my church as of  Sunday, you are hereby ordained as a minister of the love and message of  Jesus Christ to everyone you meet, and especially to those you work with every  day. And if you'll accept this challenge to reach five people in your workplace  with a love and message of Jesus Christ by the year 2020 I invite you to make  this commitment at love2020workplace.com/commit to  

love2020workplace.com/commit. On today's episode, we'll be discussing public  discipleship in the marketplace, and we're joined by Dr Amy Sherman. Amy is a  senior fellow at the Sagamore Institute and was. Named by Christianity today in  2012 as one of the 50 evangelical women most influencing the American church and culture. She's the author of six books and over 80 articles and periodicals,  

and Her most recent book is Kingdom calling vocational stewardship for the  common good, which was recently honored as Christianity today's book of the  year in the Christian living category, she holds a BA from Messiah college and  MA and PhD from the University of Virginia in Charlottesville, which is where she currently resides. And certainly, as we were talking before the interview, just  praying that God would just bring healing to the situation and the the racial  division that's manifesting there, and really indicative of what's happening in our  nation and and so maybe we'll hear a little bit about that in this in this talk. But I  heard Amy speak last year at the faith and work summit in Dallas, and she's one of the few people I've heard who are talking about discipleship as a means of  influencing institutions, and beyond just talking about private spirituality matters,  like doing your work as worship and working with integrity and applying the  Golden Rule, all of which are certainly extremely important. But in this interview,  she's going to share the need for both personal discipleship and public  discipleship so we can make an impact on our workplaces and ultimately on the  cultures. So welcome to the theology of business podcast. Amy,  

Dr. Amy Sherman - hey, thanks so much for having me.  

Darren Shearer - How would you define first of all, I'm going to ask you about  public discipleship. But how do you define discipleship?  

Dr. Amy Sherman - Yeah, I think that essentially, discipleship is about living in  the kingdom of God, under the reign of Jesus and and seeking to please Him in 

everything. I believe that. I believe there's a phrase about that in the first chapter of Colossians. So it's, it's this very holistic whole life, discipleship, conforming  more and more over time, with the help of the Spirit, to the character of Jesus,  Christ, but not only that, also conforming to the priorities and to the passions of  of Christ, because all of those things, the character, the priorities, the passions,  all of those dimensions, I think, are encompassed in The idea of our  fundamental calling the image bearers of God. So that's how I see discipleship.  It's about this alignment of glad hearted life under the reign of Christ in the  kingdom of God.  

Darren Shearer - I love that. So with that, is there an understanding of what is,  because I think it's good that you define that, because when somebody hears  the term discipleship and being a disciple, and disciple making can sound a little bit lofty and kind of super spiritual, but like how you broke that down for us, it's  the character of it's as being image bearers of the character of Jesus, as well as  embodying the priorities and the passions of Jesus. So now, what would you say is the difference between personal discipleship and what you call public  discipleship.  

Dr. Amy Sherman - Personal discipleship is this sort of, I would say, more of the focus on the character of Christ, the development of personal holiness. You  know, the quest that we have through our spiritual disciplines. And again, with  the help of the empowerment of the Spirit, to grow in Christ likeness, to seek, to  display the fruit of the Spirit. You know more more and more. And this, I think,  has been typically the primary, the primary focus of much of our churches, right? We focus on helping people learn how to pray, learn how to study the Bible, and  then there's a lot of teaching about the practical application of those things in  your personal life. So you know, personal discipleship is about, you know, living  rightly in your relationships, your marriage, your financial stewardship, you  know, your sexual behavior, etc, etc, and all of that is obviously really good,  really needed, perfectly biblical but, but not only are we to conform to The  character of Christ, but also to really share in the agenda of Christ and the in the Passion of Christ and the work of Christ. And so you study the Bible and you  see Jesus's passion for justice, his passion for righteousness, his passion for  the poor and the vulnerable, his passion for for view. Community, and so we  can't say that personal piety is the totality of what discipleship means. It's not the totality of what bearing God's image in the world is, but because I think so much  of the church has focused on discipleship in this very sort of privatized and  personal way, folks like me and others have decided, you know, we need to sort  of stick the adjective public in front of the Lord discipleship, to help people  remember that this practical living out of your faith is is something that needs to  be done in every area of your life, so not only your your marriage, but your your 

life in the marketplace, your life in the workplace, your life as a citizen, as as a  neighbor. And I think that when we really understand, you know a phrase like  Jesus was called to seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness. I think we really understand what that means, we'll do a better job of recognizing both  this personal and this public dimension of discipleship. Beautiful.  

Darren Shearer - It almost seems to me Amy, like there's there's some  confusion about what is the image of God, and usually when I hear Imago Dei,  you know the image of God and how we're called to live that out in the  workplace, the focus is not on Jesus. The focus is on God in the Garden, and  how God created work before the fall. And so work is a good thing and and so it  is enough to be like Adam pre fall, and the fact that you were just going about  doing your work, and and that to tack on anything else. In addition to that, it  would seem to some that you are devaluing the value of of work unto God, that  it's that it's somehow less of an act of worship that you are, you know, going to  you're naming the animals, or you're mopping the floor or something like that.  But it sounds like you're you're saying, let's realize that the image of God has  been revealed in Jesus, and that whatever Jesus's priorities and the way that he went about his life is, is more of what you mean, besides just doing a good job  at work. Is that, right?  

Dr. Amy Sherman - Well, yeah, I mean, I think, I think it's helpful to think about,  in a sense, the story of God, the the work of God, and that that story is a story,  you know, from creation through fall to redemption and on to consummation,  sort of the grand narrative vision of God's who God is and what God is doing.  And if we, if we have that as the sort of big context that there's this big story, and the story of my life is to fit into that big story that that's sort of what I'm here for,  then it's really helpful to think about, okay, well, that that story is a is a story of of righteousness, God is a righteous God. And the most helpful definition I've ever  heard of the word righteousness was when I read a book and the author said,  you know, just understand righteousness as set right ness. Righteousness is  everything being the way God intended to be. So you have the story of creation  and everything is the way God intended it to be. The relationship between God  and persons was the right. The relationship of people to their own sort of  psychological psyches was was right. The relationship between people was  right, and the relationship between people and God's creation was right. And so  this God of righteousness establishes a world of righteousness, a world this  concept, I think, is also well communicated by the Hebrew idea of shalom. And  that that righteousness is is all pervasive in, in, in at an individual level and at a  and a sort of systemic or institutional level. When we say that everything was  right in God's original creation, we mean. That relationships were right. We  mean that, you know, everything was working the way that was supposed to 

work. And through the fall, you see the corruption of everything falling apart in  the redemption, you see Jesus coming and saying, I'm here to make all things  right. Once again, I'm here to set things right, once again. And then you have  

this vision in the scriptures of what life is going to be like when Christ returns  and we see the fulfillment of His Kingdom, where, once again, all things will be  made right and so when you have this sort of really robust vision of of this set  rightness, then I think what you what you understand, is that there are really  important lessons and implications for your your life in the world, personally and  publicly, that sort of are revealed in each of those chapters of the narrative. So  we learn something about what it means to be an image bearer in the story of  creation, but we also learn something about what it means to be an image  bearer through the through the horror of the fall, and through the glory of the  redemption, and through the and through the you know, consonant beauty of of  the doctrine of you know how everything is going to be in the new heaven and  the new earth. So it's kind of like you have to have the really big picture in your  mind, I think, and under the real in order to really understand this notion of what  it what it means to bear, to bear the image. So, yeah, it's to get back to your  point. Yeah, it is about bearing God's image and bearing Jesus's image. But it's  kind of more. It's about, it's about understanding our vocational role in this, this  whole big story,  

Darren Shearer - right? And and being able to frame it in such a way, and that  seems to be the, the real challenge. I mean, people ask me, you know, how,  how do I articulate for myself, the way that my story, the way that my work fits it.  How is it ministry? You know, does it mean that I go and I, you know, pass out  tracts to my coworkers, you know? And there's a lot of a lot of questions about  that, but what I hear you saying is viewing your your work, as a part of God's  redemptive story. And there's, there you shared several amazing examples at  the at the conference. What would be an example of cultivating creational  intent? That's, that's the first of the three fold expression of vocational image  bearing that you teach.  

Dr. Amy Sherman - Yeah, yeah. So the sort of the verbs that I like to use are  cultivating, restoring and imagining. And as you said that the first one is this  notion of paying attention to the doctrine of creation that part of the story. And I  think we we work for the to cultivate the creational intent of the sector that we're  in. So in other words, we're not just talking about being a good, honest, you  know, employee of a place, or being a kind boss. Those character things are  really important, but understanding the nature of the work itself is also really  important, and understanding, you know, okay, I'm in the healthcare sector, or  I'm in the I'm in engineering, or I'm in business. Well, what, what is sort of the,  what was the purpose of that God created all things, including all vocations, 

including all institutions, including all parts of the of the market. So, what? Is?  What does that mean? And when I think about that, think about a gal that I got to know a little bit while I was writing my book. She's an architect named Jill Kurtz,  and she's pretty young. She's probably just recently turned 30 or so, and for her, as an architect, you know, she kind of looks at the scriptures and says, okay, if  I'm to take sort of the doctrine of creation seriously, what I see is that God  created this beautiful, well designed world in which there was a harmony  between the physical world and the human beings that God put into it. And so as an architect, you know, I'm involved in in designing that the built environment in  which human. Beings live. And so for her very practically, what that has looked  like is to say, Well, if there's supposed to be this harmony, then I need to build  buildings that are sort of good for people, right? I and I need to build buildings  that that are built in such a way that they're good for the creation. So she  actually was the first architecture student at her architecture school who got fully certified in something called LEED certification, which is basically when you  learn how to build buildings in a really sort of green, friendly way. But beyond  that, what I've appreciated about Jill is that she's also really given thought, I  think, to the the institutional sector of architecture, and again, thinking about the  doctrine of creation. Not only do you see harmony as as a beauty and harmony  as values, but you you see this picture of human flourishing, and as an architect, you can contribute to human flourishing. But what if a lot of people or groups or  organizations can't really access the talents of architects. And what Jill  discovered in going off and working for a, you know, good green design firm out  on the west coast was that, you know, this was great, I can pursue my my  interest in being an architect that that, you know, builds green, friendly building,  but, boy, you know, 80% of the world can't afford architectural services. You  know, this seems to be a problem with our industrial sector. You know, we've,  we've priced ourselves beyond so many people, and there's just lots of folks  communities around the world that could really, you know, use my talent. So she actually left her job, and she and her friends started their own architecture firm,  and they have, you know, it's a business start, you know, obviously they have to  make a profit, but they've really tried to make their green design services  affordable so that, you know, nonprofit organizations, churches, small  businesses, missionary organization, etc. Can can afford her services. In fact,  she calls herself a public interest architect, which I think is a wonderful phrase.  So, so you know that, I think that for me, that's a great story of how she's just  thinking, really, you know, she's not sort of saying I need to be a good person.  You know? She is saying that I need to be a good person. As an architect, I  need to be friendly with my co workers. But she's thinking so much more deeply  about the work itself. Wow.  

Darren Shearer - And so she's not only setting the example for other architects, 

but as their as their company grows, the company itself, and the culture that's  put in place is influencing the entire industry and certainly the community around and, yeah, when I think about discipleship, I mean the the Great Commission is  not just to make disciples of individuals, But but of entire nations, right? And so  there are, there's every level of organization in between, there and and so when  I heard you talking about public discipleship, that's what it made me think of and  and architectural firms like hers, you know, public interest architects, and the  way that that just that truly does disciple entire companies in it, and ultimately, I  think entire industries, is that what you're seeing as well?  

Dr. Amy Sherman - Yeah, more, yeah. I think, I think there's the promise of that  now, in her particular situation as a young woman, she actually is not quite right  now as involved in in her business, because she's just she her husband, just  started their family, but what she has thought about is the the institutions that  train future generations of architects, and so she's actually gone back to her  Alma Mater and convinced them to Allow her to teach this special January term  course called Public Interest architecture. So she's actually sharing her  experience and trying to influence the way that that institution, I believe it's  Kansas State University. You know how that School of Architecture, you know, is training the future architects. So she's she's understanding that she has both a  role to sort of shine her little light, you know, in the in the sector called  architecture, through her little firm, but also to shine her little light by going back  to a training institution and bringing. This perspective to young people, and it's  been very well received. In fact, there's actually a student club now on campus  where, you know, the students are really trying to promote this idea. They're,  you know, they're doing pro bono work for different types of organizations. It's  really been very exciting. I love that.  

Darren Shearer - And so that's cultivating creational intent, and then you talk  about restoring institutional set rightness. What does that look like?  

Dr. Amy Sherman - Yeah. So I think if the cultivating sort of expression relies  heavily on thinking about this notion of the the implications of the doctrine of  creation, the restoring expression takes very seriously that the doctrine of the  fall and of redemption or restoration, and it's essentially, I think, asking questions about what's wrong, you know, I'm in a particular industry or sector, where has  that become corrupted? We know that the fall was not only about kind of  individual, people, you know, not following the rules, but the fall was this cosmic, you know, comprehensive, situation in which corruption sort of is unleashed into  the into the world, and everything gets broken and and so the sectors that we're  in get broken. And part of what we're called to do is to be discerning about those places of idolatry and corruption, and to call a spade a spade and to sort of push

back against that darkness and try to set things right again, going back to this  notion that righteousness is this idea of things being set right, and so there's a  Hispanic pastor and nonprofit leader in the Philadelphia area, gentleman named Luis Cortez. And his nonprofit is involved in a variety of things, but one of them  is housing and housing finance, and he got into this in part because the in their  neighborhood, they, you know, know, a lot of families, and they were seeing this  pattern of systemic discrimination against Hispanic families who were sort of  wanting to buy homes, and they were facing this systemic discrimination from  the housing financing sector. So for example, a Hispanic home buyer might go  into a financial institution with the exact same credit scores and history as a  white home buyer, but they would end up with a much higher interest loan. Their homes are much more likely to go into foreclosure. They often are abused by  lenders who fail to disclose certain kinds of, you know, additional fees, or to  provide, you know, all that legal paperwork, you know, in Spanish as well as in  English. And so this, this poor treatment that that he and his staff were seeing,  that many Hispanic families of modest means were experiencing in the housing  finance sector made them want to say, you know, this is inequitable. This is an  injustice. God is against this. We get to participate in trying to set this right. And  so they've done that, I think, in two important ways, what I would call it, sort of a  retail and a wholesale level. So at the retail level, retail level, they have  themselves engaged in building homes and in providing housing counseling and finance counseling to several 1000 families, actually helping them to find those  companies that offer fair and reasonable financing, and so that's making things  better for those, you know, three, 4000 families right there. But what Luis Cortez  was aware of was that that retail effort needed also to be joined with a wholesale sort of effort by which you have to join with other people and really seek a  genuine reform at a more systemic level. So he's gotten very active in national  policy making on housing finance. He partnered with the University of Notre  Dame to produce some scholarly reports that you know have really compiled the evidence of this discrimination and shine the spotlight on it. And then he was  able to get his nonprofit officially certified by the Department of Housing and  Urban Development as something called a national housing counseling  intermediary, and essentially, without going a lot of detail about that, that has  provided a platform for this organization called nueva Esperanza that Luis  Cortez tends to be a voice working with others to sort of pressure for the needed reforms in that sector in order to set things right. So we won't see this  inequitable treatment against Hispanic home buyers. 

Darren Shearer - Such a great example of restoring institutional set rightness  when there's when you see an injustice, when you see something that doesn't  look like creation. And certainly there are many things, as we talked about  earlier, what's going on and in Charlottesville, and really is representative of 

what's happening in our nation, with the the racial division, and acknowledging  that, that that is, that is what's happening, but then working toward and really  getting a vision of the the shalom, the the set rightness of righteousness that  was that characterized the pre fall. And so then you talk about, you don't just talk about looking back to creation, but then imagining the work of your sector in the  age to come. What does that look now,  

Dr. Amy Sherman - I think, I think this is, in some ways, the, maybe the funnest  of the of the three expressions you got cultivating, restoring, and then imagining. And just like with cultivating, you're trying to attend to the document of creation.  With restoring, you're trying to attend to the to the notion of the fall, and to the  

fact that Jesus comes back and says, you know, I'm here to begin to set things  right. I'm here to push back the darkness, and, you know, push in in the light. I'm here to do that work of renewal. But then you look to the to the fulfillment, to the  doctrine of the consummation of the kingdom of God, that one day, all things  truly will be set right, and we will live in this new Heaven and this new earth, and to imagine, well, what, what's architecture going to look like in the New  Jerusalem? What's, what's housing going to look like in the New Jerusalem?  What's business going to look like in the in the New Jerusalem? To begin to  imagine, imagine those things. And my favorite example of that is a guy that I  met in Chicago, and he is a home builder. His name is Perry Bigelow, and he  was the founder and owner, CEO of a company called Bigelow homes. He's now retired, and his son is the managing, you know, person right now, day to day  over Bigelow homes. But when I met with Perry in Chicago and got to actually  walk around one of the neighborhoods that his company developed, and  actually it was a neighborhood that won his company Builder of the Year, which  is a very prestigious award. It was so delightful to listen to him, because  essentially what he told me was that, you know, I'm a believer, so I'm, you know, I'm in the scriptures. I'm searching the scriptures. Now, these are my words, not  his. But you know, he's a person who's trying to please the Lord in all things,  right, please the Lord in everything. And so he was looking in the scriptures for,  you know, what did they teach him about community building? Because, in a  sense, when he thinks about the product and service that his business provides, you know, at the at a kind of big picture level, what does he do? Well, he builds,  he builds neighborhoods. And so he wants to know, well, what does God want  neighborhoods to look like? You know, what? What are neighborhoods going to  look like in the New Jerusalem? And you can actually find some good teaching  in the Bible about those things. And for him, one of his, one of his favorite sort of visions of this is depicted in in Zechariah 8, where you have this, this picture of  of a coming time when the community will be this place of of safety. Children will be, you know, playing out in the streets. And old people will be kind of like  hanging out, you know, chatting to guests. And for him, you know, Perry wants 

to ask, what, what are the things? What are the values and the characteristics of the New Jerusalem? And. How can I design my homes in my neighborhoods, to  try to imagine that so that to the best of my ability, and to facilitate that so, you  know, I got to walk around this, this neighborhood, and you know, it was marked  by homes that had these really big front porches and and really wide sidewalks  and really narrow streets, and the streets all had speed bumps, and there was  lot of green space, common spaces, fountains, benches, gazebos, and all of  these things were done very intentionally by Perry, because for him, he's saying, you know, I want streets to be safe. I want the kids to be able to play in the  streets, literally, let's put the cars behind the homes, you know, I want the old  people out jawing with their neighbors. So I'm putting big front porches so the  people are there. They can, you know, call out, wave to their neighbor, have a  conversation. I'm making the sidewalk, you know, wide, and I'm making the  community beautiful and green and pretty, because then people, when the  weather's nice, they'll be out and about. They'll be conversing with one another,  they'll be enjoying the National Environment. They'll be, you know, doing a game of pickup soccer, or, you know, baseball or whatever. And he's doing all these  things very, you know, very intentionally, because these kingdom values of  safety and of of community, you know, really matter to him. Another thing that he does is that he very deliberately has built his neighborhoods to include housing  options that are at a wide diversity of price ranges. So he has little homes with,  you know, lofts. He's got, you know, little ranch homes with small yards and nice  amenities on the inside. You know, for your your retired folks, he's got big family  homes on Big Lots, lots of places to run around if you got kids. And he does all  of that because he wants the the people living in the neighborhood not to all  come from the same, you know, income class, you know. He wants to have  houses that you know, better off people can buy. And that first time, you know,  your first time home buyer, who's a fireman, you know, he is, he and his wife and his little baby that they can afford a home, or that, you know, a senior citizen can be there, or a young yuppie, you know, that wants to have their little, little  business, you know, on the first floor and then a loft apartment above. So he's  doing that because he, you know, he sees diversity as a mark of the coming  Kingdom. And so in all of those ways, Perry Bigelow, at Bigelow homes, you  know, has tried to actually design his business and his product around  imagining, you know, what might neighborhoods look like in in in the life of the  age to come in the New Jerusalem. And it was just fascinating listening to that  and and delightful walking around that community. I mean, it was clear to me  why it would have won builder over here. I mean, I was thinking, if it wasn't  Chicago so darn cold in winter, I'd live there. Wow,  

Darren Shearer - you know. And I think people, when they look on the news and they see the lack of diversity and the hatred and all of those things. It's easy to 

kind of feel like there's nothing I can do about it, that this just kind of is the way it is. But then you see somebody like Perry, who is is is not only advocating for but that he is actually doing it. I mean, he's actually bringing cultivating diversity,  because this is what he sees the kingdom being like. And it may not mean that  you necessarily need to go and buy like an apartment complex or something like that, but I just heard a very simple example of this particular if you're wanting to  cultivate diversity, for example, in your company, which ultimately would then  spill over to your community there in your meetings, like, let's say that you're  leading a management meeting. And he was saying that that typically, you know, at your at your conference table, half sits on one side, half sits on the other side. And the the kind of silos of of of the department, they kind of sit together in the  meetings. And he said, You know what we did one meeting, is we went in there  and I told my guys to sit in every other seat, so that the other team that came in  would have to sit in between, and they walked in thinking, and they were about  to go into a negotiation, and they walked in and just kind of dumbfounded, but  he said that was the best negotiation session they had ever had, because there  was they were prepared for to think in a diverse way, and not just kind of in their  own silos of experience, but, you know, just and just looking for those practical  things. Amy as we wrap it up here, what would be a parting piece of advice that  you would like to leave with our listeners about how they can do this in their own sector?  

Dr. Amy Sherman - I think it would be that we I think we think best when we're  kind of, you know, sitting around a table of food with a handful of people, and  we're bouncing stuff off each other and and so to get together with other people  in your same sector, you know. So, you know, if you're an architect, get together  with some other architects. If you're a, if you're a real estate agent, you know,  get together with some other real estate agents. You know, get get together with  some people that are in the same, you know, businesses as you and who share  your desire to, you know, really live into this, this robust vision of discipleship  and joining, the story of God, this story of working for the renewal of all things.  And, you know, ask each other questions about these things. You know, what do you think the creational intent of, you know, real estate was, you know, what?  Where do you think the idolities, idolats are in the, you know, in healthcare field  or in the educational field, you know, what? What would you imagine, you know,  an engineer doing in the in the New Haven, in Newark, you know, asking these  sorts of questions. And, you know, and pair it with some good food and and pray and think and talk and discuss about these things together and and sort of spur  one another on, you know, towards love with good deeds. I think we we can  really spark some good creative ideas when we do that sort of thing. And we  need to do it intentionally, you know. And if you don't know other people in your  field, well, start looking for them, you know. Make, make that effort. But I think 

those sorts of kind of in Sector dialogs can be really helpful. I  

Darren Shearer - love that, and our listeners know that that's what this show is  about. It's about helping you to disciple individuals, your company and ultimately your industry. Because I don't think we can disciple nations until we disciple our  industries, which are a subset of that. And so if you are interested as a listener, if you're interested in getting together with other people in your sector, you know, I  

this is kind of called an ATO boy right here. But contact me through  theology@business.com or Darren at Highbridge books com, and we'll, we'll  help you get connected with other people in your industry so you can begin to  have these conversations. Do you have any other ideas on on, is there another  place where people can come Amy to engage in that dialog.  

Dr. Amy Sherman - I'm working with a group called made to flourish. It's a it's a  collection of pastors, but we it's a very robust website, and there's a lot of good  stuff on there, including, you know, articles and thinking about how churches can promote this sort of dialog, you know, for example, taking a semester and  organizing your small groups, you know, in this kind of way, so that people can  get to know each other and have these sorts of conversations right within The in  the congregation. That's one place. And then actually, here, out of the University of Virginia, there's very interesting thing called the thriving cities project. And the  thriving cities project offers a framework for thinking about dialog. And it's a little  bit different, because instead of being organized particularly by, say, engineering versus architecture or whatever. It's organized by a slightly different framework  that they call the six community endowments. And in each of these  endowments, they call them the good, the beautiful, the true, the just and well  ordered, the sustainable and the prosperous. And if you go on their website,  you'll get a little description of those six domains. And the idea is that there are a number of industries that are in each of those domains. And so another way of  sort of organizing this conversation is to gather people together who are kind of  all primarily involved in one particular domain, and then having the same sort of  conversation. So those would be two places, I think, of resource on this, this  kind of topic,  

Darren Shearer - beautiful. I'll link up to those in the show notes. And what's the best place for people to hear more from you? Amy,  

Dr. Amy Sherman - right now, I would say it's probably the made to flourish site.  That's the primary kind of place that I'm writing for these days. I do have an  older website, center on FIC.org, which stands for center on faith in  communities. That or the center on Faith and Communities is the little division  with inside more that I run. So some of my older stuff is there. But I actually am 

very non techie, and I lost my webmaster. So it's it's rather outdated, so people  can go there and see some stuff. But for my more contemporary stuff, probably  the made to flourish website, which is just madetoflourish.org is probably the  best place.  

Darren Shearer - Great. We'll link up to that as well. Amy, thank you so much for being so generous with your time and your expertise and and may God continue to bless everything you put your mind to. And we certainly continue to pray for  your city and for our nation and for the healing and just that God would  continually stir our hearts to cultivate His creational intent, to restore that  institutional set rightness, and imagine what things will be like in the age to  come, and let that just infuse the way we go about our work and our lives well.  Thank  

Dr. Amy Sherman - you. It's been a fun conversation. I appreciate it.  

Darren Shearer - Hope you've enjoyed this episode. You can share your  feedback and get more information to help you partner with God at business and disciple your coworkers, your company and your industry. At  theologyofbusiness.com the theology of business podcast is sponsored by airlift  marketing. It's a noisy world out there, and at the same time, it's never been  easier to reach a highly specific group of people with your message product,  service or cause through website development, social media management,  podcast management, Pay Per Click advertising campaigns and branding. Airlift  marketing helps businesses, nonprofits and authors to reach their target groups  with precision and get the highest return possible on their investments in  marketing, reach out to us@airliftmarketing.com to schedule a free 15 minute  marketing strategy consultation. Thanks for listening and keep partnering with  God in your business.