Audio Transcript: Interview w/ Dr. Scott Rae: "Confronting Business Ethics Challenges as a Christian"

Darren Shearer - welcome back to the theology of business podcast. I'm your  host. Darren Shearer, author of the marketplace Christian and marketing like  Jesus, and this is a show that helps marketplace Christians to partner with God  in business to transform the marketplace and make an impact in eternity. On  today's episode, we're going to be discussing the topic of Christian business  ethics. And we're joined by business ethics expert Dr Scott Rae , who is the  Dean of the Faculty, Professor of Christian ethics and Chair of the Department  of Philosophy at Talbot School of Theology at Viola University. He has a  Bachelor's of Science in Economics from Southern Methodist University, a  Master's of theology from Dallas Theological Seminary and a PhD from the  University of Southern California. And his primary interests are in bioethics and,  of course, business ethics. And he's the author of 10 books and consults with  several Southern California hospitals and ethics. And he and his wife Sally, have three sons, and just recently had the pleasure of meeting Scott at a recent faith  and work event here in Houston, Texas, and the workshop presentation that he  did was just first class. And I was I was so impressed and knew that, and I got  so much value out of it that I knew just really needed to share this with the  theology of business community. So Scott, thanks so much for taking the time  out. I know it's a busy season in the academic world with graduation and and  everything, but really appreciate you coming on to be with us. My  

Dr. Scott Rae - pleasure. Darren, it was good. It was good to meet you in  Houston. And you're right. It is a it is a busy time for those of us academics. I  might add also to the stuff that you had mentioned, I teach regularly an ethics  course on in business ethics in our School of Business at Viola University as  well.  

Darren Shearer - Excellent, excellent. Well, I just shared a brief background, but tell us a little bit more about yourself and kind of where this interest and passion  for business ethics kind of began for you.  

Dr. Scott Rae - Well, I guess it starts. Started, really when I was considerably  younger. My dad was an entrepreneur at his own company for many, many  years, and so we sort of got this, I we got for the entrepreneurial emphasis, just  by watching growing up. I have really vivid memories of, uh, sitting around the  the dinner table when my dad announced to my siblings and I he was putting all  every penny that he had saved for us to go to college into this business he was  starting, and he was, he was not asking for our opinion. He was announcing it to us, okay? And it turned out, in, you know, in retrospect, it was actually a very  good investment of our college funds, because the company was very  successful, and he ran his company, I think in a way that was consistent with  Christian values, though, I'm not sure he ever identified it as such. And part of 

my interest in a theology of work and business has to do with his experience. He and my mom both came to a vibrant faith a little bit later in life. They were part of a really dynamic Bible teaching church, but he never really connected the dots  on on what he was doing on Sunday and how that connected with what he was  doing during the week. Except that, you know, churches collect revenue, they  don't generate it. So he's somebody out there generating revenue that was  about it, right? And so he actually, I'm not sure he really ever connected those  things. And I wondered how frequently business people in our churches aren't  connecting those dots either. I think that's a fairly well populated fraternity and  sorority of folks,  

Darren Shearer - right? Definitely. Well, you know, we hear about the big  scandals like Enron and others, but based on your research and what you've  experienced, what are some of the most common types of these business ethics situations where Christian business professionals often are not applying a  biblical worldview? I  

Dr. Scott Rae - think Darren, it's, it's, it's, it's probably more in the general  approach, as opposed to any specific issue, there are lots of specific issues I  think that illustrate the general approach. But I think the general approach that,  in my experience, that most workplace folks take toward the workplace is that I  have one set of values for private life. I have another set of values for the  workplace, and it's sort of church on Sunday, work on Monday, and it's two  separate worlds, two separate domains and, I think some of the places that.  Comes out are in some of the assignments that we take that deal with, you  know, questionable content, some of the ways we approach, you know, truth  telling and information disclosure in the marketplace. It's a big one. I think some  of the ways that we treat people who report to us, that I find that makes a very  big difference. Most people don't see that as an ethical issue, but I think that has really profound ethical implications. And then I think, you know, probably the,  you know, for people who are in accounting and finance, you know some of the  ways that the generally accepted counting accounting principles are applied.  And you know is, as your audience may be aware, those print, those those gap  principles, were not handed down from on high, most of them are developed  through time and experience, as accountants wrestle with new ways of  recording new types of transactions, right? And so the argument that Well,  everybody else is doing it this way may actually have some validity to it,  because that's really, that's, I mean, no, nobody decides in one fell swoop that a  gap standard is going to be changed, right? It's done as a as a consensus grows and is established. And it's, it's a bit, it's a bit like the way the courts recognize  constitutional principle. They reckon they don't create them. They recognize  them, sure, and I think that's what the Accounting Standards Board generally 

does, is they recognize new ways of accounting for different types of  transactions than we might have had in the past. So though i Those are some of the areas where it might show up.  

Darren Shearer - Yeah, and if somebody's overriding approach to business is  that the purpose of business is to increase shareholder value, which is so  commonly held. I mean, what I like to encourage our community with is that if it's not eternal, it's not the bottom line. And so people need to have that eternal  perspective that God is very much interested in how they conduct themselves in  the in the business world, but if your worldview is just sort of temporary, and  you're just trying to do what everybody else is doing and make a profit, I mean,  it's easy to see how a biblical approach to ethics would just kind of go Out the  window in all of these different situations. And I  

Dr. Scott Rae - think a lot of that too is that people aren't people are not actually convinced that ethical behavior makes someone a better business person. And I think although I think in the short run, they're almost always cost ethical  behavior, which is why we're even having this discussion. But in the long run,  think those virtues that are nurtured by both they're both required and nurtured  by involvement in the marketplace, I think do generally make someone a better  business person. Those I mean, I think my, one of my late mentors, Diana  Dallas Willard, put it this way, said, Who would you, who would you rather have  work for you, someone characterized by the fruit of the Spirit or by the deeds of  the flesh? Right? I don't think that's a tough call,  

Darren Shearer - yeah. And I think you know, because the trust and reputation  is so key in business that I mean you can only reinvent yourself so many times.  You can only rename your company so many times you know people, they they  figure out that this company is is dealing in unethical behavior, and so they get  

so many bad ratings on the Better Business Bureau that they just start over  again and start over again. And you know, over time, like you may win in the  short term, but in the long term, like you're saying, you can't really build a name  and in the business world,  

Dr. Scott Rae - yeah, one of the things that sort of troubles me about a trend is  the emphasis on a company's or even an individual's brand, and I think we  have, we have subsumed the discussion about reputation and trust and  trustworthiness under that general umbrella of a person or a company's brand.  And I don't think that really captures what the brand what we really mean by  that, because I think someone's, you know, a company's ethical reputation, I  think, is the most important part of what we identify as their brand, but we view  that more in marketing terms, not so much in ethical ones, 

Darren Shearer - yeah, yeah, that's That's unfortunate. But I think when people  get a hold of that, that I mean your your brand, is every contact. It's every  perception that people have of you. You know, from the phone call with the  customer service person to the way their expectations are or are not being met  by the promises that have been made. And I think you made a good point  earlier, that the way that we make promises in business and don't deliver on  those promises, I mean, that is a key area where there's a lot of unethical  behavior going on. So there's so many different issues, and this is really kind of  the thrust of your presentation that I heard here in Houston, that that there is a,  there is a default position that we should have as Christians when confronting  these ethical challenges in the marketplace. What is that a default position?  

Dr. Scott Rae - Well, our in our view, that when we put it like this, when when  you, when you deal with ethical challenges and ambiguities, rather than  succumbing to the temptation to to get out that instead, the default position is to  keep your place at the table, unless there are compelling reasons to to leave  right and some of those compelling reason our view would be, does it put you in  legal Jeopardy. You know, we've had, we've had several people tell us that.  Well, I, you know, I told my boss I don't want to do this. And he's and he said,  Well, that's a career limiting decision. And we said, Tell your boss. So is going to  jail? Sure. A second one is, is it? Is involvement in this kind of business. Is it  corrosive to your soul? You know, that's a subjective thing that is going to be  different for different people. The third is, does it? Does it? Does it undermine  your ability to bear witness to the reality of Christ in your life? If people have  enough people have this sort of you know, what's wrong with this picture?  Moment when you know they see what you've been doing, but also find out that  you're a believer, right? And I know there's a fourth one.  

Darren Shearer - I'll have to check my notes, because I know that I wrote it. I'll  think  

Dr. Scott Rae - of it in just a minute.  

Darren Shearer - Well, so so so I think people get the point here that there's this default position, which is to not leave the table,  

Dr. Scott Rae - right? And again, again. Part of the reason for that is to, you  know, if you think about who if you leave, then the person who replaces you will, I'm almost positive, have a less sensitive conscience than you do, and so you  may walk out of there feeling, you know, feeling a lot better about yourself, our  experiences, that usually only lasts for about 15 to 30 minutes. And then you 

realize, well, the organization is really in in a lesser place, because you have  left, yeah, now that's not to say there aren't. I mean, there's certain things that  you just get you can't do I get, I get that. And there are places that are more  ethically challenged than others, and there are, there are times when you know  you don't have a choice but to leave. I totally get that. My our concern is that  frequently we see people leaving prematurely.  

Darren Shearer - Yeah, it's kind of a boycott mentality, where that's that's kind of the first response into these types of situations,  

Dr. Scott Rae - and we don't, theologically, we don't expect, really, any  organization to be without some sort of flaw and some sort of ethical challenge. I mean, in a fallen world, we shouldn't expect purity on the part of organizations  that are populated by miserable, wretched, self centered, depraved sinners. You know, in fact, we tell our we tell our business students. Most of the organizations you're going to work with are a mixed bank. You know, they're going to do some  things really well. Have integrity in some things and not in and others, not so  much, right? And if you go, if you're looking for purity, you know, go set up your  lemonade stand on a desert island. That's right. Don't think you can go be a  pastor and get and get into an ethically pure organization.  

Darren Shearer - Great point. Well, I have a specific, personal scenario that I  wanted to get your feedback on. So so this is the default position, which I totally  agree with, that our first instinct should not always be to run away, because  we're called to be salt and light, and that's because things are dead and dark in  our culture. Otherwise, Jesus Wouldn't have said that. So this, this personal  situation. You know, I'm a small business owner of a publishing company and  and so here, here's the scenario that I'm now faced with, which is sort of  ongoing that just started a couple weeks ago. So it was immediately after this  recent announcement by PayPal that they would no longer be setting up their  600 person office in North Carolina simply because they didn't like North  Carolina's new law that requires people to use the bathroom that corresponds  with their gender, their birth gender identity, not the gender that they currently  identify with. So I respect that decision on the part of PayPal to this is what they  believe. So they're not going to support, you know, and by moving into this state  of North Carolina, that they would feel that they are supporting legislation that  doesn't align with their values. So I respect that at the same time, you know, I do respect the decision by the North Carolina legislature. So, so, but since I started  my publishing company, all, pretty much all my invoices that I send to clients  have been going through PayPal. And I think a lot of the entrepreneurs that are  probably listening to this are probably in a similar situation where they're using  PayPal for a lot of things and And so basically, PayPal has been getting about a 

seven, at least a cut out of probably 75% of my sales and and so Because I  don't, I don't like that, PayPal has withdrawn their plans to set up shop in this  state, just because they don't like that. The government is saying you have to, if  you're a man, you need to go into the men's room. If you're a woman, you need  to go into the women's room. So, so, because I don't like that and and because  my business is so intertwined with PayPal, what is the right approach to take  and in this situation? Well,  

Dr. Scott Rae - Darren, I I appreciate your sensitivity toward both both interests  in this discussion, but I don't, I don't really see where paper where you are doing anything unethical by continuing to do business with PayPal. You know, the  people we do business with are not, you know, we're not, not saints, right? And  I'd say if, if PayPal, if, by doing business with PayPal, you know that means that  you are doing something unethical with your customers. Then I think that's worth getting exercised about, right? But until that point happens, you know they want  to, they want to do business according to their values. Join the club. And, you  know, I'd say, I wouldn't, I wouldn't fault you. If you found another provider. I'd  say, Jake, go knock yourself out. But I think, I think that's, that's pretty distant,  what I would call distant cooperation with evil, right? And you know, nobody that  we do business with is going to do everything in ways that we totally agree with,  sure. And so what we have to determine is, you know, is, you know, is my doing  business with PayPal, what I would call a material cooperation with something  that I consider unethical. And I would say, in this case, it's not because really  that stand really has no impact on your the way you conduct your business, with integrity, with your customers, right?  

Darren Shearer - I guess part of what kind of complicates the issue for me is  because I do see businesses as as a potential, a place for ministry, and so I'm  not going to go to a church, or I'm not going to I'm not going to put my tither, and I'm not going to put my offering toward a church or a ministry that is doing things that I believe are, are, I mean, very much, an affront to the Gospel. And so why  would I consider business differently, you know, and it like it's okay to put your  money toward a business or an organization that is so overt about the message  in the worldview that they're trying to broadcast. Because it's not like you. You  know, on Amazon, Amazon sells things, you know, erotica books, for example,  but they sell Christian living books. I'm not going to boycott Amazon because  they sell, you know, to an extent. I mean, if they're, like, selling humans on there, or something like that, and like human trafficking, that's a different situation. But, but because, you know, in the US marketplace, anyway, we have such a array of options. I'm not limited to PayPal. So it's not like I'm kind of stuck with PayPal.  It's just one of those things that you know should a decision like that motivate  me to find another option, and maybe sometimes there aren't other options. 

Dr. Scott Rae - Like, I say, I don't think, I mean, I don't think you're doing  anything wrong by looking, looking for another option. I don't think it's morally  required either, sure. And I think we hope, I think you're right with, you know, I  don't want to put my money my tithe to a church that's doing things that I don't  agree with, right, but we generally hold churches to a little higher standard on  that than we would businesses that don't claim to be having any connection to a  Christian worldview. Absolutely, I was going to say secular business, but I edited myself. Good thing is a secular business,  

Darren Shearer - I completely agree with that. Well, basically where I'm at with  it right now is I have that gave me the motivation when they made that call and  they took that stand publicly and said, This is the way we are going to stand as a company on this issue. It's like, okay, well, I'm either gonna stand with you or I'm not gonna stand with you. And so for me, putting my money with them was  basically me saying that I'm standing with you. So I found a better product  actually, to start using for my for my finances and invoicing and all of that, and  I'm using them now. I still have some of my E commerce stuff with them that's a  little bit more challenging to migrate right now, but, but that's, you know, it was  just, I think maybe a, probably a familiar situation for some people out there. So  that's why I wanted to kind of bring that one. I know you have a lot of other great examples. What will be another example that comes to mind of a situation that  would cause somebody to have to make this type of decision?  

Dr. Scott Rae - Well, most of what we get are employees who have less, you  know, they have less discretion than you do, because you're, I mean, this is your company. You're calling the shots. And I think just in fact, one more on PayPal,  and then we'll leave that. But sure, I guess I'm not totally convinced that by  doing business with them, you are necessarily standing with them in everything  that they stand for. I mean, I, I don't, I don't, I don't see it as that being that kind  of complicity. But I think what we find are there sort of individual assignments.  So take, for example, this was one, one person. She was employed by it. So it's  a web based media company, and what they do is they take, they take print and  television ads and adapt them to the web. And this was a print ad that this  company was being asked to do which, which was for. It was for a brand of, kind of edgy brand of clothing that they sell mainly to college students. And they had  the print ads had sort of this, you know, sort of spring break on steroids. And it  was, you know, kind of wild drink, you know, drinking games. Lot it was, clearly  there were college students, because they had, you know, college logo shirts  on, and the ones that had shirts on. And the person who was in charge of this,  this was supposed to pitch to her as a big project, but she'd had a sister who  had been killed a few years earlier when drunk driving accident by somebody 

who was underage. So she was, personally, very sensitive to the to the idea of  underage drinking, and chose, you know, she was wrestling with whether or not  to accept this assignment, and her boss had encouraged her to accept it, and  she she eventually did. She kept her place at the table, hoping to moderate  some of the things that were problematic, and even even, held to the idea that  even if she couldn't moderate this one, she might be able to moderate some of  the next ones by keeping her place. She was pretty sure that if the company  replaced her, it'd be somebody, you know, far less conscientious than her. She's  a good example, I think, of someone who I think did the right thing by keeping  her place at the table. She, I think had it, you know, had it caused a little more  angst, or been maybe a little different issue? She might have done something  different, but, and I think the way she phrased it was, was right, rather than, you  know, go front and center with the morality card. She pitched it in terms of, I  have this is a personal issue for me. And she could have also said it's a personal issue because it's a moral issue too. But she pitched it as just as, this is a  personal matter of conscience for me, because my sister was killed by this, you  know, underage drunk driver. A few years ago, we have a similar scenario  where, you know, this is a really good friend, actually, he's got an advertising  agency here in the West Coast, and they won't, they don't take any tobacco  advertising. It could be, it'll be very lucrative for them, if they did. But his dad,  you know, smoked two packs a day for, you know, 40 years, and died of a heart  attack when he was 55 and he just said, he said, it's probably, it's okay for your  agency to do these, but you know, it's a personal thing for me. I think it's  unethical, given my background and what you know, what you know, I just, I just, I don't want to be a part of advancing the industry that helped kill my dad. Yeah,  sure. So I think it's generally, I think we would say you have to be strategic in the same way about moral issues that you do about other issues, and generally, the  people who come in, riding on the white horse of righteousness, you know, with  the, you know, playing the morality card, usually end up getting shown the door.  And so we encourage people to do this, approach this strategically, make sure  you have enough, you know, organizational capital banked to be able to make a  stand like this. And then, as best you can frame it in terms of it being a personal  issue, a matter of personal conscience, and instead of just walking away, always ask, is there another assignment that I could take? You know, another  alternative for me, because I love my company and I want to stay. I just have a  personal thing with working on this assignment right now, some companies will  say, hey, you know, get out. Get over it. It's not it's business, it's not personal,  and then you have a harder choice to make. I think we asked my ad agency,  friend, if the choice came between taking a tobacco ad, let's, let's say that your  company had lost a client, a big revenue producing client. And ad agencies,  don't they, you know, they don't have, they only have buildings or things or, you  know, inventory they can sell off. It's their people, that's, you know, the human 

capital is all they have. And so if things is a big account, he's got to lay off  people. And I said, if your choice was between accepting a tobacco ad and  laying these people off, what would you do? And he said, I'd hold my nose and  take the tobacco ad because I have a I have a weightier responsibility toward  my employees and their families who are dependent on this for a livelihood. And I think that, I think that weighting of those values, I think, is right, yeah,  

Darren Shearer - yeah. And I think when the options are more limited, it does  become more interesting, because, like, you made a good point about there's a  difference when your employer is asking you to do something versus when you  are, for example, the owner of PayPal. And you can, you can say, you know,  let's say that the the owner was, was a Christian, and they said, we are, we're  not going to go to North Carolina because of a ruling on this issue, that that is  not an agreement. And people and they would have just gone to a different  state. Maybe, you know, as long as there are states that still are around that  haven't, you know don't hold your breath. Yeah, exactly, and but I do think it's  interesting that even though the default position should be to stay the the  unbeliever is, is saying. You know, with our company, we could go to any state  we want to, because you've made this ruling, we are not going to go to your  state. And so it's, it's challenging in that way, but, but it is nuanced when you are the owner versus when you are the the employee, right?  

Dr. Scott Rae - It's very helpful to be able to call the shots right in there. You  know, there you don't have your options are different, right there, you've got  choices really, with when you're when you're an employee and you're reporting  to someone, you know you're right, your choices are more limited and they're  more stark. There's more I think, I think there's actually more at stake for  employees, and which makes it, I think, much trickier.  

Darren Shearer - Yeah. I mean, I think they can relate more with probably a  Daniel, you know, versus, say, a David, right in the Bible, right? And  

Dr. Scott Rae - I think, yeah, one of the things we want to emphasize too, is  that, you know, if you're not a good employee already, you know you that you  those are some choices you get to kiss goodbye, yeah? Because you know if  

you're a good, valuable employee, generally, our experience has been that  companies are, you know, they're not. They're not looking to increase their  turnover, right? And if they can accommodate you, they will, if you're a good  employee, and if you don't have these twinges of conscience once a month, you know, if this is you know, I mean, if you have these twinges of conscience  regularly, then I would suggest you probably need to get into an industry that's  not going to disturb your consciences regularly, right? And it may, it may very 

well be a bad fit for you, but assuming, assuming you're, you're diligent and  faithful and responsible and a good, good steward of what the company is  asking you to do, I think it's reasonable to expect, if you're gracious about it, the  company to accommodate your, your wish to be on a project that doesn't trouble you ethically, because the company, the company knows you know they need  your best effort for this client, and you, and you have moral obligation to give  your client the bit your best effort. Yeah, so if you can't, in good conscience, do  that, then I think it's in the company's interest to reassign you, if it's possible to  do that  

Darren Shearer - great point. Well, as we're kind of closing it up here, what  would be a parting piece of advice you'd like to leave with our Christian business professionals? And then also let us know one of you've written 10 books. What  would be the number one book that you would recommend that you've written  specifically for Christian business professionals? Well, I'll  

Dr. Scott Rae - do the shameless self promotion first. Okay? The book that I'd  recommend is it's our book i co authored with a colleague at Seattle Pacific  University by the name of Kenman Wong, and it's entitled business for the  common good. It's published by InterVarsity press. It's a, I think it's designed for  thinking workplace folks. It's part of a series that InterVarsity published a few  years ago on Christian faith in the various disciplines. I would encourage any,  any workplace person, I tell them to skip the series preface, go right to the  introduction, because that's what the series preface really has nothing to do with business. And I some, I fear that some workplace folks might get a little bogged  down with that. I see the parting shot. I don't get to do a parting shot very often,  so I appreciate that. I guess I'd encourage you know, everybody who's out there  in the workplace to see their work as you know, as a part, not not all of it, but a  part of their faithful service to God, and that they consider themselves in full time service. And the Bible is really clear about that, that the very work we do actually constitutes a part of our ministry. Often ask business people, I say, Tell me about your ministry in the workplace. And they tell me all these things they're doing  when they're not doing their job, and nobody gets the that doing your job counts  as part of your ministry too. That's right, it's not just the church stuff that you do  in the workplace. Yeah. And I would, I would, I'd want people to know that, you  know, the workplace is probably the primary crucible for their spiritual formation.  It's the primary arena in which they can fulfill the command to love their neighbor as themselves, and it's the primary arena in which they serve God by serving  their communities. and so I think it's worthwhile. And I'd say this to pastors too. I  think what our churches need to be better at is helping our workplace folks  understand that they are in this for more than just a paycheck. They are in this in order to serve their community and to show how, specifically, how does their 

business contribute to human flourishing in the service of their communities?  Yeah,  

Darren Shearer - powerful. And I was just remembering you, you were sitting on that panel there at the end of the conference, and there was a pastor that had  just recently retired, now on staff at a seminary, and actually confess. I mean, he repented for in a lot of ways, it wasn't even his fault. He just didn't. He never  heard this message. He never understood that God really wanted to be a part of what people are doing in the workplace.  

Dr. Scott Rae - I told him after the conference, after that panel, that his  admission was the most important thing that was said from up front during the  whole day.  

Darren Shearer - I agree 100% that's a remarkable  

Dr. Scott Rae - addition that he had. It was for 30 years, and never got this  powerful.  

Darren Shearer - Well, where can people connect with you? Scott,  

Dr. Scott Rae - probably the best place would be by email, scott.rae @viola.edu and then I have a web page on the Talbot website at Talbot, talbot.edu and then, yeah, I am not a big Facebook Maven, but Gotcha. But yeah, if somebody wants to, you know, friend me on facebook. Be happy to respond to that too. Well,  

Darren Shearer - go get the book business for the common good on Amazon.  Scott, thank you so much again. I know this is a busy season for you. So thanks  so much for taking the time to share your wisdom and expertise, and may God  continue to bless the work you're doing to equip Christians for ministry in the  marketplace and just help to bring about that Christian worldview in our culture.  

Dr. Scott Rae - Thank you, Darren, I've enjoyed getting a chance to get get  better acquainted with you and all the best in the work that you continue to do as well. Thanks.  

Darren Shearer - Hope you've enjoyed this episode, and I'd like to hear your  feedback on this episode at theologyofbusiness.com where you can get more  information about marketplace ministry, spiritual gifts in the marketplace  marketing, like Jesus and Christ centered leadership and entrepreneurship. The  theology of business podcast is sponsored by high bridge books. If you're  interested in publishing a book to make an impact for God's glory in the culture, 

head on over to HighBridgebooks.com. Forward slash course to sign up for a  free three video author training course. And in this course, you'll learn how to  write a great non fiction book, how to market your book, and how to start a blog  to build your platform as a thought leader, thanks for listening and keep  partnering with God in your business.