Video: Transcript: Elders as Overseers

Elders Course — Session 7: Elders as Overseers

Opening

Bruce:
Well, we’re back on session number seven, and we’re going to talk about elders as overseers.

Abby:
Yeah.

Review & Framing

Bruce:
This—just reminder where we’ve been. You know, we looked at what it means to be an elder, and what—who’s called to be an elder, the kind of character we need as elders. And we’ve looked at—we began to look at some of the issues of, what does an elder do?

Well, this session is maybe one of the most important things that elders do, but it’s—it’s adjusted, let’s put it that way, depending on the size of your church. So let’s get into it.

“Overseer” in Scripture

Bruce:
One of the words that’s used to describe eldership is the word overseer.

Here’s from Titus, where Paul is writing about all those characteristics. He says, “Since an overseer manages God’s household, he must be blameless, not overbearing, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.” We’ve looked at those words. That idea of an overseer is huge.

Abby:
No—defining task that’s going on, right?

Bruce:
And then here’s in Timothy: “Here is a trustworthy saying: whoever aspires to be an overseer desires a noble task.”

And Paul, talking to the elders in Ephesus, in Acts 20, he says, “Keep watch over yourselves and all the flocks of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he built with his own Christ.” The idea—overseers—is huge.

Here’s one more. Paul is writing to the Philippians, and he says, “To God’s holy people in Christ Jesus at Philippi, together with the overseers and deacons.”

Abby:
In this case, elders is really a synonym for older. Yes.

Word Meaning & Image

Bruce:
Another word—another word that’s used. So what does that mean? Well, the word in the original language is episkopos. You can—you know, those of you who are of Episcopal background will recognize that. Sometimes translated as bishopin older translations.

But this is the definition: one who has responsibility of safeguarding it or seeing to it that something is done in the correct way—or synonym would be guardian.

And so, how in the world do you do this? Well, the image in the Bible—it’s very used, often, certainly by Jesus—is being the shepherd. Now, the shepherd has a lot of responsibility for the sheep, and most of those we could put under that rubric of he oversees the sheep. He makes sure they’re protected. He makes sure—yeah, right.

Oversight Today: Mission First

Bruce:
And so how do you, as an elder here in the 20th century—21st century, whoa, man, I’m reflecting my age there—how do you act as an overseer in your church? Well, let’s think about that a minute.

Part of it has to do with the mission of the church. In other words, an overseer defines why your church exists.

Abby:
Right—to be able to be safeguarding something, you have to have that mission that you’re guarding, that you’re keeping—right—understanding what priorities.

Bruce:
Now, every church is going to have these aspects to their mission: worship, education/discipleship, evangelism/outreach, fellowship—those things. Probably when you read church mission statements—and there are an abundance of them online—they will show those four things included in it.

But to understand how you do this in your church, in your position as elder, we have to look at something else, and that is the size of the church.

Abby:
Gonna look very different. Elder structure, the leadership structure, and—

Church Size & Staffing Patterns

Bruce:
I’ve had the privilege of pastoring churches that—first church was small; second church was medium, grew to large. Second church was large, grew to very large, to mega church while I was there. And so I’ve had experience in all of these, and it just strikes me how different the role of elder was in each of those situations.

So let’s look at how churches are usually staffed, right?

• Small church: a single pastor.
  70% of the churches in the United States are small churches, and they usually have a single pastor, and that pastor does kind of everything.
• Medium church (up to ~200 to 300–400 people): will have a pastor, but then will have part-time staff in addition.
• Large church: will have a pastor and some significant staff.
• Very large church: will have levels of staff.
• Mega church: will have multiple levels of staff.

Small Church Details

Bruce:
Now let me explain what that looks like. In the small church, I put pastor as leader? question mark. Most small churches, I believe, have an idea that they have a pastor to be their chaplain. In other words, he or she is going to preach, going to visit the sick, going to funerals, going to do weddings.

And the elders are the ones who have been there for years. In small churches, pastors don’t stay—the church—tend to stay real long, and so the elders are the ones who are there year after year after year, and so they tend to share leadership with the pastor.

Now, if you get to that small church, you’ll find the pastor doing preaching, worship, primary pastoral care. Elders are also involved—caring—because they know everybody in the church usually, right. The pastor teaches in most of the classes, but elders often take those roles, and the elders and pastor lead together.

(Picture there is of the first church that I served—yeah, 19— we’re looking back a long way—1979 to 1984.) And I’m pleased—you look at the sign City on the Hill. After I left there, they had a pastor who followed me and had a whole different idea, and the church began to decline, and it shut down entirely about eight years ago, and it just reopenedagain last year with a new pastor, a new launch team, and they launched City on the Hill. And I rejoice from a distance now, and I see that they got that new dream and vision—right. And they’ve got a cattle trough up there; they baptized eight adults one Sunday morning, and—yeah—I rejoice in that.

But there they started the church without elders. They started with a pastor and a launch team, and now they’re just starting to get organized and trying to define that. But this is how it happens—usually in a small church. That little building could seat about 100 people, and that was it. So that’s the small church.

Medium Church Details

Bruce:
Now you get to the medium-sized church, and this is a church I served in Grand Haven, Michigan. Picture of it: it’s an old piano factory building that was purchased many years ago and continues to be rehabbed and redeveloped and et cetera.

In the medium-sized church, you’ve got a little different kind of setup. As it’s growing to a large church—which happened in that church—the pastor is more of a leader, and the elders tend to take defined roles.

We had shepherding elders, who were responsible for the spiritual and care of people, and then we had governing elders, the ones who would be overseers, and there were six of each of those.

The governing elders had a very defined job description: they would pray for the church; they approved budget every year; they approved ministry plans—so they had a role of saying yes or no; they would help evaluate the ministry—“Are we doing right things?” and some things we’re going to be doing later. And they supported the pastor—the church—but they were involved in support of that.

In addition, we had functional teams: Finance, Facility, and Personnel—with skilled people. Personnel made sure manuals were in order and served as a place for appeals. And we had a lot of part-time staff. So that’s the medium size.

Very Large / Mega Church Details

Bruce:
Now, when we get to the mega church, or a very large church, it’s a different setting entirely. This is the church I served in Southern California after we relocated. We had a church that sat about 400; we were in three services, and we decided to relocate in a six-and-a-half-year process.

What does that function look like there? Well, elders functioning as a ruling body. The pastor is the primary leader. When I was there, I was given authority—all authority. I could hire, I could fire, I could do almost anything. But every year I was evaluated for effectiveness, and the whole ministry was evaluated regularly.

We had multiple staff: worship (about three), children’s ministry (a couple), a preschool on grounds with its own staff, youth staff (a couple), missions, evangelism; and then Finance, Facility, Personnel people. Those people did the programming of the church.

But it’s different there. So the elders in that church had a different role: they would look at the church, they supported me—and they did. (There were a couple times—and we’ll get into conflict later.) Leaders tend to be subject to—let’s say—some complaints at various times. And, you know, elders had to make a choice: How are we going to handle this complaint? Part of their job description, to me and the other ordained people on staff: they were a support—and were marvelously so.

Matching Needs, Pastor, and Gifts

Bruce:
So it’s going to be different, right? Depending on the size of your church; depending on who is your pastor.

Now, you know, one pastor I know of is a delightful man—authentic, true—but he admits he’s got no leadership ability. You know, he’s kind of thrust into this leadership thing, and he doesn’t like it at all. And so he functions more as a shepherd, as the chaplain. And in that situation, in that church, the elders have to be far more engaged, right? And when they were looking for other staff, they were looking for leaders—people who had gifts in leadership—so that, you know, the big question is: What does your church need?

When you look at the size of your church, when you look at how it’s organized, you look at who is the pastor in your church and his or her particular gifts—what is it that your church needs?

What are your spiritual gifts? The Bible is very clear that God gives us spiritual gifts. Do you have gifts in leadership? Then you should be stepping alongside your pastor. You should be helping in leadership.

Now, you know, in that last church I served, we had an abundance of qualified leaders. These were people who, you know, had built and started their own businesses. Built them up. They knew about checking in; they knew about what it took. And so they continued to step by me. And, you know, I will say they would correct me on occasion too.

I remember very well a man who was a good friend, but he was a powerful leader. He’s one of the church fathers—he began the church—one of those visionary people who started and planted this new church in Chino, California. But I remember the day where I had pushed something through, and we were trying to get us to be involved in church planting, right?

So I had arranged for the seminary of our denomination to send us a person who had just graduated from seminary—he’s going to be with us for a year, and then we would launch him into church planting. And so I brought this to the elders, and boy, I ran that thing through. And afterwards, this church leader said to me, “We better have lunch.”

Abby:
I—

Bruce:
I always felt—I thought, “Oh no, I’m going to the woodshed here.” But what he said was very encouraging. He said, “You know, you cashed in a lot of chips in this whole process.” That idea of having chips that allow you to do more. “You don’t have to do that. If you would come to me and explain the vision of this whole thing beforehand—not just drop it on the meeting—so I could have carried that ball for you, and you could have just enjoyed the results.”

Abby:
Right—and been able to be like, “Yeah, I support this. I like this. I want this.” But he could have done that—yeah.

Bruce:
And he was true to his word. We formed a partnership—this was early on in my ministry there. And, in fact, when we were going to relocate, he was chairman of our building committee, and he took that whole process. I was on the building committee, but he took that whole process—worked it all through—you know, a multi, multi, multi-million-dollar project. And, you know, I played my role as pastor and leader of some parts of it, but, boy, he took the ball and ran with it.

Abby:
Right? He did what he said. You know, he was willing to be that person of leadership and support to you. You didn’t have to carry that—

Bruce:
Right. And in the process—now, you know, the pastor, for good or ill in our culture (I’m not sure about yours), but I carried a lot of influence. And so when we were in fundraising, I had a role to play there. I was the one going to the various small group meetings to talk about this and etc.

But, you know, in the background, I wasn’t worried about budgets. I wasn’t worried—we had to sell our old church building—I didn’t—

Abby:
—do it at all—working on getting that sold—right. We had to deal with—

Bruce:
—the city and getting permits and, oh man, it was a grueling process, and most of it I didn’t have to deal with. Now it did—it was incredibly draining. But the idea: pastors and elders are to work together.

Now, in the system that I function in—in the denomination I’m a part of—the pastor is officially an elder in the church. And that’s the role you get—now you get a title to go with that, because you’ve gotten some training and you’ve been set aside for this as pastor—but I function as one of the elders, as a group of people who come together. And this—important foundation stuff.

Because we’re going to talk, you know, eventually, about church—what do you do in an elder meeting; we’re going to talk about evaluating ministry—how do you evaluate ministry, and whether you’re accomplishing what you say you want to accomplish. We’re going to be talking about a whole bunch of stuff like that that will impact how you function, depending on how you view your role.

Clarify Roles with Your Pastor

Bruce:
And so, you know, this is one—if you’re involved in this class, you’ve just become an elder somewhere—it’s time to sit down with your pastor and have a conversation about: How does he—how does he see this—

Abby:
—get this clarity. What does elder look like in your context? Yes.

Bruce:
—and what is my role? And what are your spiritual gifts? Do you have gifts in leadership? Do you have gifts in shepherding? Do you have gifts in mercy? Do you have gifts in exhortation? Do you have gifts in—yeah—and how can you function to the optimum for your church?

Because you are called to be an overseer. Whatever your spiritual gifts, God is giving you the opportunity to have an impact on the spiritual life of your church.

Warning: “All-Powerful Pastor” Structures

Bruce:
And so don’t miss this one—this task of overseer. It’s not as fun as some of the other ones, in some respects, because this is where sometimes conflicts arise. It’s—

Abby:
—difficult at times, right? Be an overseer. It is a noble task. It’s hard, it’s—

Bruce:
—noble, and it’s needed. I’ve been—I’ve been—I’ve been dealing with a church in our community from outside, because they have a structure where the pastor is all-powerful. This is a church of—it’s probably a medium-sized church at this point—but their elders—they have three—and they really have no power. They have no—no input whatsoever. The pastor is it.

Now, studies have been done of that organizational system, I will tell you that, and it is the most efficient for getting things done. It’s also the one that gets most in trouble, yeah, because all of us—your pastor—you cannot do it alone, right? Can’t do this alone. And all of us, you know, absolute power corrupts absolutely is the old saying. That—somebody with all the power—it’s just not biblical, number one, and number two, it’s putting your church in danger.

And I think, you know, in the United States, some of my heroes—people like Bill Hybels (somebody who was dismissed from ministry), John Ortberg (somebody who resigned from ministry). These are megachurch pastors who had a lot of power, and in some respects, they abused it, and so the church dismissed them.

And so you are needed as an elder—

Abby:
—necessary to the health of your church, right—

Bruce:
—and especially in this role of overseer. And so—yeah—so we’re gonna go on from here, but get this one right. Okay, we’ll see you next time. Bye.