Transcript: Marriage Undone - The Brink of Divorce part 2

Video Transcript: Marriage Undone – The Brink of Divorce Part 02

Welcome to the second class of marriage undone the brink of divorce. This class is going to be focusing on issues that could possibly come up in a relationship. And when they do, if they're not addressed, it can definitely lead to that contempt feeling and divorce. The first one is called virtuous dishonesty, marriages need honesty and gut level all out on the table honesty. Sadly, but not surprisingly, it is common in life and marriage, tell little white lies and withhold the truth. It's actually viewed as virtuous to practice that type of deception or virtuous dishonesty. Those two words shouldn't even be in the same sentence, if you will. We don't want to hurt someone, so we keep the truth from them. Sometimes we practice virtuous dishonesty because we believe we are preserving our perceived integrity. And we hope that will keep life running smoothly for everyone. This integrity that we are trying to save as an illusion, what really is happening is that the person will go on and having a life that is a lie, except they don't even know it. Meanwhile, God is nudging the person to come clean to make things right with him, or her and with yourself and with others. I'll give you an example, a couple that I was working with, the man had been unfaithful and involved with another woman, the woman and this man would occasionally see each other at the workplace. And they also had each of them a child that was involved in the same sporting event. He was very much accountable to his wife, when this was all found out, sharing passwords, she could have access to his cell phone, emails, things like that. Of course, his wife was very adamant that she did not want him to have any further context. And she worried about if that would happen at work. And of course, he told her and he comforted that would not happen. And he would very much tell her if it did. Well from time and the next month, he did run into this woman as his workplace. And right away, he was edgy, he knew that he did not want to have a long conversation he wanted to get out of there. What he ended up doing is talking to her briefly, and it stayed very much about the issues with the sporting events with their children. Now all the way home, he kept on saying to himself, I'm not going to tell my wife about this, because it would probably hurt her. So it wasn't that big of a deal. I didn't talk about anything that was about relationship issues. And I certainly didn't encourage, I don't have to tell her I didn't do anything wrong. Now there's a virtuous dishonesty, he had told his wife that he would tell her if he happened to run into this woman. Or if you saw this woman, well come to find out there was somebody else at work that saw the two of them talking and knew about the issues. It was a far reaching friend of he and his wife, but it did get back to the wife. And then it was like things blew up. I mean, we had been making progress. And we took about 10 steps backwards, because now she didn't trust him again. And even if it would have been difficult for him to talk because she would have felt sad knowing that they had seen each other. He could have again given her confirmation of his continued commitment and how he had kept boundaries, even with that brief conversation because they just ran into each other haphazardly. 

Now in terms of having deception, typically, most people have an entire list of lies that they don't consider wrong. And then a whole separate list of deceptions are absolutely wrong. A person can tell half truth and exaggerate and this will be acceptable, but a lie is a lie. No matter how light or little it is. This deception could be based on the mindset that we are being kind to our spouse, like this fella was thinking, I don't want to hurt my wife. Even though we've given his words, what we are doing is choosing to place more importance on the feelings in the moment, rather than on building a culture of honesty. Telling the truth and making someone cry is better than telling a lie and making someone smile. Now I do want to add to this a little bit, I am not advocating that it should be our our driving force to tell the truth and make someone cry. However, in these type of situations, when the truth is going to hurt our spouse, but it is going to lead to honesty and more trust. Even the tears could be necessary because it might still hurt. And it will lead to having wholeness, more trust and smiles because of a person decided not to tell the truth. And then the spouse is all smiling because they think everything is just fine, that's false. So that's what that little quote is talking about.

God view on lying. God is pretty clear in Scripture concerning how he feels about lying. There are six things the Lord hates. Seven that are detestable to him, party eyes, aligned tongue, hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked schemes, seeds that are quick to rush into evil, a false witness who pours out lies, and a person who stirs up conflict in the community. Proverbs six, out of the seven things that God did test two of them have to do with lying, that's 29%. Your marriage cannot tolerate lie and receive the blessing of God. Now what nobody wants to mention another issue that I have watched happen in a sense couples spiraling, do you want to honor your marriage relationship and be faithful? Now we know, this goes without saying affairs. And being with infidelity will derail a couple, it is something that when I find out that is taking place I have to ask myself is this couple going to make it because it is such a betrayal in terms of the oneness and the covenant. But akin to this is knowing that even after restoration, or even if a couple has not gotten to that point, and neither one of them has ever been unfaithful, that prepare yourself ahead of time, because you will find other people attractive, recognizing this ahead of time will prepare and help us deny our flesh when that first flirtatious comment, or inappropriately long stare might have and we have to be ready. That gives us the ability to have the strength to remember that our commitment and the covenant is with our spouse. What nobody wants to mention as well is that our flesh wants to indulge in this thought it could be a literal person, or maybe it's an image on the internet. But God has called us to a higher standard and commands each husband and wife to honor him. And the marriage vows. Do the hard thing and walk away, you will need God's help to say no and to not give in to the flesh, or to those temptations and desires. In fact this cannot be with success. Unless God is helping, Colosians 3:2 set your mind on things above not on earthly things. Because if either one of the spouses give in to these type of temptations. Now, if it's the internet, it could be all kinds of things that could be contact with people. But for the internet, it could be pornography, it was a literal person that would be face to face. Many marriages don't survive. Because it becomes again such a place of betrayal, and such a place of a covenant break. Now triggers, triggers take us back to a day or an event and often to the emotions surrounding that event. Something in the present triggers us to remember something in the past, a song, a phrase, a piece of clothing, or a smell. Triggers are brutal, and can totally bypass a person's healing or change and will transport them directly back to the day when the traumatic event or betrayal happened. Why this is so significant that it could lead to a marriage being done is often initially a couple after they have started to deal with whatever the issue was that was causing their marriage to go towards a divorce. There's a lot of intent and focus initially to get through that, then the husband or wife would be of the mindset that we're now down the road, maybe it's been a few months, maybe it's been a year, maybe it's been five years, then a trigger comes. If the trigger comes, this event will be talked about again, just like it happened. And often when it's talked about then the other the spouse who may have been the betrayer is just so upset and furious. Because they may be thinking we're doing fine. I've been faithful, I've been honest. But let's talk about the trigger and how to handle this. Because that's what this part of the course is about to about as well how to handle these things are giving an example of a trigger. 

There was a woman who had found some pictures on the internet that her husband had posted. And he actually was sending messages through it's called a Craigslist, which is something on the internet where you can make casual encounters. And the pictures were things that identified who he was, she was devastated. And of course it all came out recession. Well, they did a ton of work. They were both Christians. He actually had not met anyone, but it was just through the internet, but it still was emotional sexual talking on the internet. And the pictures were as well. Well, they had done therapy had been about six, seven months past the incident. And they were at a concert one evening and it was a wonderful experience for both of them and it was a Christian concert. He ended up taking a picture of what was happening in his day. And while he's right after, I guess he took the picture, he was scrolling through to make sure the picture was stored. And as she looked over his shoulder, she saw one of the pictures stored in his files that had been on the Craigslist ads on the internet. Now, that was a huge trigger. Before she even thought she said to her husband, because this came up in therapy, she said, there's one of those naughty pictures. He looked at her and said, I am not putting up with this, I am not going to be accused of doing anything, you are not going to mother me. And he left, she ended up having to call a friend to come and pick her up. The next session was full of having to processes trigger. Now let's talk a little bit about the processing of this trigger. If you wounded your spouse, you may feel frustrated when he or she experiences a trigger. Because it does two things it remind you of what you did. And it makes you feel like you haven't changed. The absolute worst thing that can be done when a trigger arises is to get frustrated or mad that your spouse is still hurting. Remember, your actions caused us. But then I say to the spouse, and if you are the one who has been wounded, don't live there. Don't keep throwing your spouse's sin back in their face at every opportunity. Don't stay in a place of misery and just expect the pain to go away. Now triggers are not necessarily a definition of throwing it every opportunity, the trigger becomes the opportunity. In that situation, what I told those dear there, folks, is that when she saw the picture, she could have chosen a bit different words, there's that naughty picture. There's that picture. And I still hurt. Now that might have because she owned it. She didn't put any type of blame or shame on the picture. She owned it that it was so hurting. Then I said to her husband, I said, no matter how she said it, even to touch her and just say, I know that still hurts. Again, I'm sorry. We're here tonight. And we've been doing very well. And my commitment to you in these last month is to continue to grow. And to be faithful. I'm going to delete that picture. Both of them said that would have helped if she would have spoken about it differently. And if he would have responded differently, because otherwise a trigger can lead to a divorce issue even more than the actual event. Because it brings it up again. 

Another issue with having a marriage come undone in that picture right there. This is an example of an incredibly hurtful fight, where verbal abuse is taking place. Most people who practice verbal abuse as a way of life or suffering from low self esteem. Emotionally, the verbal abuser is not a strong, confident, self assertive individual he may appear to be inside he or she feels like a child, trying desperately to become an adult and fighting desperately but inappropriately to prove his or her worth. The verbal abuse is used to bolster his or her own self esteem by putting others down. Most verbal abusers have an unconscious need to be seen as perfect. Social approval has become almost a holy quest for the verbal abuser. The verbal abuser thinks that such approval requires perfection. And we all know, perfection is only with our Lord Jesus. Thus, any criticism jeopardizes self worth. That is why the argument must be one. Because to lose the argument would be to acknowledge that this person is less than perfect, and in fact, worthless. I will see these scenarios. And my couples were either one or both had a very horrendous childhood. And to survive that childhood to try to get any type of reinforcement or positive affirmation from a parent, they tried to be perfect. But in so doing, what happens is once they hit marriage, and of course, things come up in marriage, they're not able to receive any type of constructive criticism or speaking into their life, they will deflect and sometimes even use the verbal abuse to shut their spouse down so that they don't have to feel that they may be had a role in it or they don't have to feel any type of shame or guilt. The verbal abuser often grew up as I said, in a home with verbally abusive parents, the expression of anger is the same expression that the parents use. The problem is that the anger has often been stored toward the parents but is now released towards the spouse. About help to the verbal abuser, and seeking to help a verbally abusive husband or wife you must first understand and accept the validity of his or her inner spiritual emotional needs. Your spouse has inner needs a self worth purpose and fulfillment in life and needs to be affirmed in those areas. At that same time, you do not help a verbal abuser by accepting his or her destructive efforts to meet those needs, because you are hurt by the verbal abuse, you often lash back and self defense. And the need of the abuser which gave rise to the verbal abuse goes totally totally on a draft. I thinking of what a possible scenario could be there, it is very much human nature, that if we are lashed out upon, we will dig our heels in. And we will make sure that our point of view is heard or understood, or perhaps we will completely shut down and become absolutely nonverbal and have to leave. You know, when that type of an issue happens, I do say to my folks, if you walk away, you can say I do want to talk about this. Or you could say, to be spoken to like that, there must be a ton of hurt. I know that's not your true heart. I do not want to be spoken to in that manner. But I do want to understand about the hurt. 

And even if they can't hear that right then, because you may have to just walk away, it doesn't mean that the seeds are not being planted. And in those seeds, that they are hearing something in their mind that you still want to listen, the emotional need is underneath the intensity of their verbal abuse. And that absolutely has to be identified. Healthier approaches to verbal abuse, a better approach is to acknowledge your spouse's inner emotional needs and incorporate these in your response. And example, is what I just talked about. I know he would even say you're terribly frustrated, I wish you could share the pain that you feel inside. It must be very intense, and I would like to help you. How about this one, but I cannot help you when you express your hurt and anger in such destructive ways. You could also write me a note, sometimes verbal abusers when they get upset. They so quickly go to verbal abuse, that if they could slow down and write something, or maybe even buy a card, that might be a better way to express to their spouse, so give them that possibility. Don't let verbal abuse work. If you give in to your abusive spouse and do whatever the abuser is requesting you are encouraging the abuse, you could say to your spouse, I have realized in the past I have encouraged these verbal outbursts or have I have allowed them by caving in to what you have desire to me, I realized that this is wrong. I want you to know that in the future, whenever this happens, and it feels like verbal attack right here verbal verbal attack, I will not really be responsive to that kind of behavior. If you want to make that kind of requested me as your spouse, I will certainly consider your request and may well do what you desire. But I will not encourage you to be a tyrant by giving in to you when you are ranting and raving. I believe that it's not your true heart. Now, I do need to process this. These are not words to be said. Whenever verbal abuse is happening, there is no way that your spouse would receive it. I would suggest that these words are said with a third party, or when you can tell that your spouse is calm. And the issue of where the verbal abuse or verbal attack had come out at the forefront because you're wanting your spouse to hear you I would pray to the Lord for the right time to say this. And notice that the end part of that is I believe that it is not your true heart. But you absolutely is calling a spade a spade. And some of my husbands or wives don't have the courage or are too afraid. So a third party a pastor, a counselor might need to be present for this conversation. Behind every verbally abusive tongue is a person of value in spite of his or her delis wazers spouse bears the image of God and has innate value. It is this positive image that attracted you to your spouse before marriage. Now does a timeframe member that behind the facade of they're verbally abusive lions, to whom you are now married as a lamb you used to cuddle? You married the lamb, not realizing that the lion would emerge? Now you must believe that the lamb is still there and that with the help of God the lamb can become predominant again. How about that picture? This is a picture where if you're not sure, this man is very angry and his wife is cowering on the steps. This is another very specific incident that could lead to this marriage being done and it is called physical abuse.

Physical abuse of any act that inflicts bodily harm or is intended to do so if verbal abuse can kill the spirit physical abuse can eventually kill the person, and the marriage is destroyed. In the vast majority of the cases, the husband who abuses the wife, why stay in these relationships at times, because the wife may blame herself, the husband can be remorseful and the wife is forgiving. But many better wives grew up in homes where there was a measure of physical violence. So they have some experience with that. Other reasons that wives will stay in these relationships is that they are isolated themselves. The wife may be ashamed to tell family about what is going on. Fear is another factor. They're afraid that if they contact family, or a pastor or a friend or police, the abuse will become even worse. These wives are often emotionally or economically dependent upon their husbands. And often the husband's threatened, that things will become worse, if it comes out in the open. So responses to physical abuse, there is often a need for physical separation, I hardly ever recommend full physical separation, but in physical abuse or domestic violence that has come up. And however, there still needs to be a commitment to the marriage, it can still be made to stay in a marriage with physical abuse as a marriage undone. And even if that divorce, this is not a marriage. This definitely will take the help of a trained professional or a pastor. The woman we need to express to her husband the pain and frustration that he or she is feeling from the past abuse and to let him know that she loves him too much to continue living in this situation, which could destroy her and ultimately himself, and that is if she can truthfully say that she still loves. Or maybe she could say I know God wants me to love, the wipe off and we'll have to communicate that she is moving out until he can find an answer to his abusive explosions. The wife should also indicate that she is very committed to working on the marriage after extensive counseling, and help us as sought by the husband, the support would be to help the husband deal with his frustration and anger. Again, these conversations need to happen with a trained professional and often why I would recommend a separation that is still not a divorce. 

Because it takes something that's strong for the verbally or physically abusive mate to understand that these issues have to be dealt with him or her. As often I said like where the physical is often the men, if the spouse and the wife represent the discontent, and it still could be unresolved issues way back from childhood or something in their marriage that has to be removed, so he cannot deflect from his anger and put it on her. So it would have to be dealt with. A path for the husband with the help of counselling or the pastor The path is to understand that expressing anger in an abusive manner is a learned behavior, and that it can be unlearned that he must take responsibility for violent outbursts that such outbursts are never constructive and that there must be ways to learn constructive ways to process anger. Each anger explosion led to a greater sense of incompetence. That certainly doesn't build up the man in terms of who he is in a relationship and it certainly doesn't allow the wife to feel any security or respect. Skills for the husband to learn to recognize when tension starts to build up inside. And that a therapist I call those DBT techniques which are techniques that's Dialectical Behavior Therapy, these are techniques to learn to calm, to soothe, to have coping strategies, and how to process minor irritations before they get to the explosive state. Also how to help the husband be able to express his emotion so he's not at risk for this. And this anger and anger will not be eliminated, but rather replace abusive expressions of anger with positive expressions. We've talked in other another class about how anger is part of how God has made us. Another issue for marriage being undone is victim mentality. Dr. Judith Orloff, assistant Clinical Professor of Psychiatry at UCLA, and author of emotional freedom describes what this can look like the victim grates on you with a poor me attitude and is allergic to taking responsibility for their actions. People are always against them, the reason for their own happiness. they portray themselves as unfortunate to demand rescuing, and they will make you into their therapist. Even though you're their spouse. Basically having a victim mentality means that you blame everyone else for all that is happening to you. 

And take no responsibility for anything. It's never your fault. Now, it is very hard to do marital therapy, because one of the things that we talk about a ton is how we have to look within ourselves to whatever we are bringing to the table of our marriage that has caused it to be on the brink of divorce or to be undone. And if there is a person with a victim mentality, they will continue to blame the spouse. And it's almost as if they can never get to the point of healing. Victim mentality forgiveness is the vital element. and choosing not to live as a victim. Despite all you've endured a miserable person is often someone who is bitter and has chosen not to forgive. There will be issues that come up with your spouse and will cause hurt, our emotional memory will act like a muscle memory and the feelings of the victim will come to the forefront. And now the spouse is the one who was at fault. I was working with a couple that the wife may confided in me that she had an affair it had happened about four years previously to our therapy work. But their marriage was in a really rough place. The husband couldn't understand why she was so shut down. And the wife kept on talking about there were things about the husband, that did not allow her to feel close to him. He was quite controlling. He was verbally abusive at times. He was very, very articulate with his words, and she was more of a quiet, soft spoken woman, but more passive aggressive, she would do the virtuous dishonesty and not always talk about things when she should, she certainly never told her husband about the abuse. 

Now he was very committed to wyness marriage to work and working on his issues. And she actually was as well and I was so delighted with their commitment. Because they were talking about divorce. I realized that honesty was going to be huge. So we prepared a plan and prayed about the timing for this wife to tell her husband about the abuse. And my prayer, her prayer was that it would open up that there would no longer be any secrets. And there would be able to be forgiveness eventually, and they could find healing. When she told her husband about the abuse, he reacted completely the opposite. He now said now I know why she treats me this way. I now don't know if I want to work at this because she did this to me. And now I have been the victim of all of her withdrawals. And it literally became the victim mentality. And instead of being able to start to work through this, he used it against her. And sorry to say their marriage did not survive. Because he was not able to put himself into her shoes. She actually did withdraw a lot and had not been able to be honest with her husband. And when it finally all came out. They responded in very, she no longer would trust her husband and he became just the victim. Victim mentality and unhealed heart will be the result of our forgiveness as well. If left unaddressed, or treated and unhealthy heart may even die. A damaged heart cannot identify what is wrong and therefore lashes out in frustration, pain and anger, usually toward the one you love the most or spouse and that's what that fella did. I remember running into him a few years after therapy, and they were divorced. And immediately he told me that he wasn't happy. He had been doing some dating but had never remarried. So his victim mentality that I think at that time, he thought was his way to protect himself ended up leading, I mean partially that's what happened leading to the divorce. And he still wasn't happy. Healing a damaged heart and getting beyond the victim mentality is to think about a time when you know that you hurt your spouse in the past. Put yourself in their shoes. Did you mean to hurt her or him? Did you sit down and plan out this event so that your spouse will be hurt? We don't usually mean to hurt our spouses when we do hurt them. 

Display empathy right now and try to put yourself in your spouse's shoes. Do you think that he or she woke up this morning and plan to break your heart that man was not able to do that? True biblical repentance is needed. This is not a week or watered down apologies such as I made a mistake. Or if my behavior offended anyone, I'm so sorry. I'm guilty of poor judgment, a misstep? I have an addiction. I got some bad advice. These are all ineffective poor apologies which are not apologies at all make matters worse, because the apologies could be needed by the spouse who did the betrayal. But the apology could also be needed by the spouse who is not understanding and plays the victim role and is not allowing for any type of forgiveness. True biblical repentance is a key length in the change process in the victim mentality. The New Testament word translated repentance is metanoia and it is a turning from sin and turning to a new path to faith in Christ it contains four elements, confessing your sin in this specific detailed way I did this it was wrong. It means saying the same thing about your sins that God does first John one nine, feeling sorry and realizing the impact our sin has had on God and others, asking for forgiveness and changing behavior, making 180 degrees turn. In that situation the woman, and she did try would be giving very strong commitment to her husband to no longer have issues of an affair or any issues of infidelity than the commitment of her heart to her husband, and her husband would have been able to reach a point to get past the victim mentality and forgive. 

Yes, there are times that people may have planted out and can be downright mean and selfish. Choosing to forgive people for hurting you as a choice who will spend the rest of your life making love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, Matthew five, be kind and compassionate to one another forgiving each other just has Christ, and God forgave you. It is risky to forgive too quickly. It is even more hazardous to wait too long. If we wait too long to forgive our raised federal fan and claim squatters rise to our souls, our resentment gets into our bloodstream. And it's hard to get out of a spoonful of ink from a glass of water, our raised weaves itself into the texture of our spirits, we become the pain we feel, we cannot cleanse ourselves of it without loss to our own identity. One of my experiences with this resentment and rage that settled in is a man that would actually say in a session, I have no use for women. I have no trust for women. And he was in marital therapy with his wife. And this man had done some things to really betray his wife. But he had somewhat of a victim mentality. And that was because he didn't trust women, almost like he had the authority to do so because he didn't trust women, we had to do some soul searching. Because he was never able to forgive issues that have happened in his life with his mother, with his grandmother, with a previous wife, and with a neighbor, and they were all female. And there was so much squatters right inside his heart, that it automatically transferred to his wife. And I can remember her saying, which was always amazing to me. But you know, something God honor this, she would quietly look at her husband and say, it is my prayer and my commitment that I will be a woman in your life that will be different. And you will see that I have a true heart. And I do not want to hurt you. Now she also set boundaries when she needed. She actually started the counseling process. And it was within the took about two years. But he started to trust his wife, he let go of his rage. He no longer was at risk to do things that cause betrayal. And they started to heal and she became a woman in his life. That was different. Thank you, Jesus. A relationship without trust is like a car without gas. You can stay in all you want, but it won't go anywhere. And that's I want to just mention the last part of this particular lesson, trust issues. Because if trust is lost and is never able to be regained, our marriage won't survive, it very likely will not survive. Trust loss and to be found will be part of the journey to restore a marriage that has been undone. Wife trust will need to be understood and implemented into the marriage to return from the brink of divorce. Let's examine trusts a bit further as this is essential and understanding another issue that is created marriage to be undone. When Trust has been broken. There can be extremes of responses, a spouse who has been burned, made determined to not let this happen again, they will withdraw to bring protection and will refuse to engage again. The inner thought processes maybe hurt me once shame on you hurt me twice shame on me. But will that lead to healing? Or will that lead to the marriage being undone? That answer is very obvious. If trust has been broken by a spouse that has been abusive, controlling or emotionally absent, the trust alarm should go off. This should remind us again to create some space, set appropriate boundaries to protect herselves. This is a way to gain respect for our spouse and also from our spouse.

And that again, is I'm probably referring more to the verbal and physical abuse when a trained, licensed professional or a pastor should be involved. Because the goal is to get to wise trust grounded in relational evidence developed over time. Simply put, it's a general belief that those others your spouse are capable and willing to meet our emotional needs. When we trust someone. We're an asset saying I can rely on you. I know you will be honest with me. And I'm confident that despite the fright and the storms that we have, you will care for me, value me, and not intentionally hurt me. Now, this is an extremely hard principle, when there has been issues that have caused the marriage to be at the brink of divorce. We've talked about many of them lying, victims, triggers, verbal abuse, physical abuse, but is possible. I have had the blessing of sitting in sessions. And knowing that from a human perspective, I might have even said there is no chance for this relationship. There was a couple that had incredible financial stress. And in that stress many times, the husband had a gambling problem. He had come clean. They had worked with a financial counsellor. They had done budgets. And of course, she didn't trust him. But they had actually got back on track and had a number of months that led him into a couple of years, where they're financially they got much stronger. While then he had some issues come up in this business. Unbeknownst to her, and because of these issues, he started taking out some loans unbeknownst to her, it started to compromise the ability for him to again pay their bills. And when she found out that they have now done this spiral again, they ended up going to bankruptcy. I mean trust completely broken. She actually came back into session. And he did too. And it was evident from the very beginning that I think it was because she had seen that he had the ability to be more accountable. She looked at her husband and she said I am just glad we are back to truth. There are no more lies. I can work with the truth. I'm looking at you in the eyes. I need there to be complete truth and I will continue to commit in this relationships and even work with God's help through this bankruptcy. Because I still believe in you, he wept, he absolutely wept. Now, there's where wife trust comes. Now it wasn't based on trust over a long period of time. But she was communicating to her husband that she could rely on him and trust in him again. And by golly, that's exactly where it went. And to my knowledge. After even a couple of years with working with them and occasionally hearing some updates. It never financially happened again with those type of issues.