Video Transcript: Generational Culture Interview with John Burden

We are continuing today to talk about leadership. And particularly, we have been in this whole process for a long time of a leader interacting with the culture in order to develop a vision for  a preferable future and then providing the impetus to do the planning and the activities that  are going to lead to that future. So, we've been talking about culture for the last several  weeks now. And so culture is basically the way we do things here. And as I said, Before, I want to introduce you to some people in this process that will just give you a different light on a  different view of this kind of culture experience of leader interactions interacting with culture.  I am with my friend, John Burden, I got to know John, a few years back, and in a leadership  kind of capacity, I think you called me first. And we had some conversation at Covenant Life  Church where I was serving. And then I was looking to put together a group of leaders and a  network where we could just be with each other and learn from each other. And John has been part of that. And so we've gotten to know each other a bit that way. And John is, as you'll  note, considerably younger than I am. And so that will help us today as we talk about  generational leadership, and some of the things to know about culture in that regard. But first of all, welcome, John. John is a husband. He's a fa-. He's a father, and he is a pastor at Harbor  Light Ministries, in Holland, Michigan. And so tell us a little bit about yourself? Well, you know,  we've been talking about leaders here for a long time. And just tell us a little bit about some  of the things that went into you becoming a leader in a church.  

John - Yes. So I think the big thing was growing up in a very small church. It was one of the  few churches in a very small town. We had just enough money to afford a part time youth  pastor. And he came into our church, and basically, through his ministry started a revival  among within the town within our church, where he just started discipling people, he started  throwing events at our church, and just watching how he led that youth group, both in the  details of youth ministry, and then just the simplicity of doing relationships, and calling people to the next place and calling a youth group to the next place in the church to the next place. I  was hooked when it came to ministry. And from that experience, to actually doing youth  ministry, where you at least in the way that we did a young life, it was really about the  message of the gospel, and then the relationships with individual kids. And so you see that at  the end of the day, even though leadership is about having a vision to take a community of  people, you can narrow it all the way down to what does this individual need right here and  right now to move to the next place? And I think those were the big pieces for me really early  on that sent me on a trajectory to go do ministry.  

Bruce - Yeah. And I know that that was not an easy call for you that there were some little side tracks along the way, and college and that sort of thing. But as you thought about becoming a leader, what were some of the formative formative forces in your life to say, oh, that's what a  

leader does. This youth pastor was obviously one of them. Were there others that said, Oh,  that's what leadership is like. And I think I'd like to do that. What were some of those  situations? J 

ohn - Yeah, I would say two major things. So when I was in college, they let me do the evening service at our little church in Belding, Michigan, which had about 25 - 30 people going to the  evening service. But I was still nervous, as all get out to get up there and give a sermon. And  so I remember preaching my first sermon there, about Jesus, sending the disciples out into  the world, his final, great commission at the end of the book of Matthew, and I'm sure it was a terrible sermon. And when I got done, one of the elders of the church walked up to me, and  he was just one of the key leaders. It didn't matter if he was on council or on the board or not. He was just his name was Lyle Weeks, and it's just, it's Lyle, he's coming up. And I thought,  oh, man, is he gonna disagree with something that I said. Did I messed something up? You  know, what, what is he gonna say to me, and he just walked right up to me shook my hand  and he said, I heard the gospel today. It was clear, you did a great job, and you should do it  again. And he always encouraged me, because there was a time and a place for him to give  feedback if he was going to do that. But he knew that in that moment, what a leader needs to hear is I'm there for you and you did a great job. And so I think the support of having 

someone way older than I identify leadership gifts with cheering you and I think I mean, I  think most of leadership is Seeing something in someone that they might not even see  themselves, and identifying it, encouraging them, and walking alongside them as they start  exploring these gifts. I think that's clearly what a leader does. And that's what Lyle spent his  whole career doing as an elder at our church. And then the second thing would be meeting a  senior pastor who had 25 - 30 years experience, and having an opportunity to be an associate pastor at that church. And he took two hours out of every week to take me out to breakfast or meet me for coffee. And just topic by topic, situation by situation. Talk about leadership in real time. It wasn't just a theory anymore. We didn't just read a book. But here's a challenge we're  facing at the church. What do you think? Here's, here's the way I did it in that meeting. What  did you think about that? Do disagree with the way that I did it? And just having these open  conversations in the context that we were trying to lead was huge. 

Bruce - So what were some of those great moments as a leader, when you say, oh, man, this,  this is so much fun. You have any of those that you just say, Oh, wow, this is? This is just a  great moment. I'm so glad I'm a leader.  

John - Yeah. So when I got a job as the Associate Pastor, basically, the senior pastor said, we  hired you to do outreach, and help our church reach the community. So go figure out how to  do that. And let me know when you figure something out, we have no strategy in place, we  have no ideas. That's why we hired you. So go figure it out. And we had this idea to do a, an  evening meal during the summertime where we would just grill out and we'd invite anybody  

in the community to come. And then the goal was, we would go around and every person on  the team would have to come back with three names of someone they had met who they had  never met before. And we wanted to create such a hospitable environment, that literally  anyone could come and feel like they were welcome there. And so you have this idea. We  want to do a community meal, we want people to come. And then you know, I brought this to  Keith, the senior pastor, and I said, here's our idea, we want to do this community meal, he  said, Great, what's next? You have the idea? And I said, Well, I think I have to find a team. And he's like, that's right. So you have to go inspire people to go and live out this vision. So go  build a team, and make it happen. And I think, going and asking individuals who I thought to  gel together as a team, and having one after another, say yes to this. And sitting down at that first meeting where where you really give that idea and you get the passion behind that idea  and what you're trying to accomplish and have everybody just like we're in for the whole  summer. That's right work. We're gonna be here every single Wednesday night for the entire  summer. And we are committed to this. And you walk out of that first meeting, saying, We've  got this we've got the idea. We have people so that when this summer is over, we have this  measurable event that we tried to do and we could walk away saying, I think God really did  something.  

Bruce - Wow. Those are great moments in leadership. What about what are two are really  challenging situations where you say, oh man, you know, one of the things about leadership,  we're going to get into culture in a few moments where you culture where you are. But one of  the challenges is change is always difficult for people. And sometimes they don't want to  change because culture is feels real good the way it is. Yeah. So what's one of the students,  one of the things I want students to learn here is that there's a price for leadership at times  too, and you've got to pay that price if you're going to move an organization forward. So  maybe a situation or two where you say, oh, man, that's when I was about ready to walk  away.  

John - Yeah, I think I think any time where you feel like people on the team, that were a part of this, in the beginning, have lost the passion for it. And there's really nothing you can do about it anymore. You've tried to rally them back to it, but it's just, it's run its course. And  sometimes things that you're involved in, run its course. And the hard part is, is no one ever  told you when that was going to be and so being able to step back and either shut down a 

ministry and walk away saying God did something there but that time has has come and to  embrace the fact that that happened on your watch and you failed. And that's okay. And  because I think a leader will always know there's there's another one coming up. But I think  that's one I think anytime that you have people on your team, or even yourself, where you  put enough people in a room for long enough, there's going to be disagreements and people  aren't going to get along and seeing the ministry be affected because people just aren't  getting along. And it's personal. And you're like, I thought we were supposed to rise above  this we're the church, but having to deal with that kind of interpersonal conflict is, is pretty  difficult.  

Bruce - Very hard to move past the person. For many, many people. Yeah. Anyway, you've  been at Harbor Light now, what? Four years, five years, almost five years. Tell us a little bit  about the culture. That particular it's a unique culture. Yeah. Tell us a little bit about the  culture that you work in there.  

John - Yeah. So Harbor Light Christian Reformed Church, started out as just like a lot of  Christian Reformed churches, a Dutch heritage. The people who emigrated to Holland,  Michigan, decided to name the church after their hometown, where they were from, which  was Harbor Light in the Netherlands. And so it started out as, as a Dutch Christian Reformed  Church, and for about 115 years, that's what it was. Meets in this beautiful red brick building,  the pews, you know, the organ, white pillars in front, beautiful, but 25 years ago, two things  happen. One is a group of the people who went to that traditional church said, we want to do  like a contemporary worship service, where they bring in a band, it's, it's a little more  informal, they wanted to do that and do contemporary worship. And the council said, Yes, I  think the unique thing about Harbor Light is that they've always just said, yes, if you have a  leader, who has a clear idea of what they want to do, Harbor Light just says, Okay, let's see  how it goes. And so they started a second service, that service is now called Fusion. At that  exact same time, while about five years later, the youth pastor of the church said, I want to  do another kind of church that isn't just a contemporary service, but it meets around tables.  And there's a lot of testimonies, and it's messy, and authentic. And that's how Watershed  started. And so Harbor Light Ministries went from being this Christian Reformed Church that  met in an old sanctuary, to having a traditional service. In that sanctuary, a contemporary  service, and then like an alternative service. And it's been like that for 20 years, where you  have three different communities really, well, three different churches in one church. So that  was the first thing it was all about worship and the experience of going to church. The second  thing that happened, though, was that a bunch of the leaders there said, we really want to do  ministry in the community in a real way. We're we're ministering to broken people who are  trying to figure out how to find housing, who are trying to figure out how to have programs for their kids, people trying to figure out how to become a citizen in the United States. And so  these different ministry areas became a nonprofit, called Neighbors Plus, which is really how  we do justice and compassion in the community where we are. And so Harbor Light has kind  of these two major things where it's like mission, and we're going to create experiences for all different kinds of people in our community. So we're not limited to one kind of person. But  we're also going to be heavily involved in our community, and especially ministering to  people who don't have the resources that they need to get to the next place in their life. So  yeah, those are big things. Yeah.  

Bruce - Yeah. Every time he explains that, to me, I think how in the world has that ever  worked? It does somehow somehow it works. Well, it works, because the leaders that are  there, yeah. So you came into that system at a time when it was broken a bit, or at least  battered and bruised. Yeah, at least, you're part of the Watershed part, maybe just share  something about coming in and trying to understand a culture that's there. So that a  preferable future can be experienced and what that was like to come into a situation where  previous pastor had left and taken people with him and things are down and etc. 

John - Yeah, so the the pastor who started Watershed was a very charismatic, magnetic  person, amazing leader. And Watershed was really started for people who don't like church.  And they even had a tagline where they said, Watershed, a church for people who don't like  church, which is great until your church has been around for 15 years. Now, it's like a church  for people that don't like church but still go to church. You know and so I think he even felt  like, whatever this thing is going to become, someone else is gonna have to take it there. And so he moved on and took another position as the senior pastor of another church. And coming in there, it was very much A question of like, what is Watershed becoming? You know, you  have this community that was founded with this kind of edge, like we are not a normal  church, we are not a traditional church, we are authentic and messy. And this is not like how  church should be, but we're still here. And it's kind of become, I would say, over the last, you  know, five years, it still has kind of that, that draw for people who are starting over in their  lives, that's always been part of Watershed's target is people who are either burned out on  church or at a transition point in their lives. But really, we've become more of a community  focused church. And by that, I mean, we exist, as we gather here on Sundays, we are being  sent back out into the world. And so we've really transitioned to being revolving around the  words of mission, community impact, reaching our neighbors and our schools with the gospel. And so we still have a little bit of that edge, we've maintained that that core culture, but it's  had to kind of change as you know, it's, it's 20 years old. Now, these people who didn't like  church have been going to church for 20 years. Right. Right. Right.  

Bruce - But that'd be another identity somehow somewhere.  

John - Right, and I think that that was the big, the big question on how do we maintain and  create what we always call, like, what is the natural progression? So what is the next step for  Watershed that we don't abandon or react? What do we need to take with us so that it  becomes a natural place that people will still come like the people who started this place? It's  still Watershed. That was, that was challenging.  

Bruce - So what were some of the steps in there this is you got to get a group together, that's  going to go with you there, your new. So you don't really have all the chips that maybe you  need in order to make change big changes quickly. What were some of the steps you took to  say, Okay, we've got to do that evolving in the right way to a preferable future. What were  some of the things that are on your action list?  

John - Yeah. We were, we were very intentional to select leaders, who could be both  representative of the former Watershed, but also signing up for whatever was next. If we, we  made a couple mistakes by signing up for people that wanted to hold on to what it was, and  continued to tell stories of the glory days. And that that definitely was a huge setback for us.  And so we became much better at selecting leaders who were forward focused, but  understood where Watershed had been, I think that's huge. Anytime you're going to bring  change, because people are looking, who are the leaders? Okay, they're going, Okay, I'll go.  And I think that was big. The second thing was that we, we continued to just bring up people  to give testimonies about what God had been doing in their lives in the last year. So showing  that God was still moving in this place, even as we are kind of moving to the next place. And I  think I think that was huge. And then the number one thing was, we got to get staff to  completely buy into where we're going. Otherwise, it's not going to work. And so I would say  that Watershed didn't like change completely, we didn't lead through like a cultural  transformation or something like that. It was more incremental and natural in that way.  

Bruce - But, one of the things about Watershed was starting out with a youth group. Now, it's  probably representative of a lot of different generations. And that's one of the thigs we've had conversation about before, as you work with all of these different generations with all of their  

understandings of what is the good thing going forward? What are some of maybe just some  characteristics of generations that you'd say, Oh, those are things I got to keep in mind as I'm 

working with these people because they represent a lot of background that causes them to  respond in a variety of ways.  

John - Yeah. Yeah, I would, I would say, Watershed has probably three different generations  that make up the community. And so we actually, for the first time, have had some people  who have recently retired and have joined Watershed, they moved out to the lake shore. And  they'll come in there and they will say, I've been a part of a traditional church, my whole  professional life. But now we kind of want to try something different. And at first, I was really  nervous. I'm like, Oh, you don't understand what we're trying to do. I think you you're not  gonna like this. But they really do because I think especially for people who are what you  would call baby boomers, people who are I don't know what ages that would be now, but  they're looking for something clear. Is this clear? And is this going somewhere? And can I be  confident in the leadership? Right? The generation younger than them, which is the  generation that started Watershed people who, you know, were in their 20s at the time, but  are now in their 50s that these Gen X generation, they want to know, is this authentic? And is  there it doesn't have to necessarily be edgy, but it has to be transparent. And those are kind  of the big words for them. And then what we found with even the younger generation people  that are 34, and younger, they want to know, does this impact the community is this  purposeful, is as part of a global movement? And I want to be older people in that generation. But you always want this feeling that you're caught up in something bigger than yourself.  And, and I think if you can figure out how to connect with each group, then you can keep  everybody on the same page. But the the number one thing for all of them is that you as the  leader, have a clear idea of where it's going. So that they don't feel like you're just positioning yourself to each generation, right, where you are just trying to reach them specifically, but  not you're not being true to who you are. So yeah,  

Bruce - We've talked once I know about when you have staff who represent various, various  age, and the cultures that go with that, and how they are fulfilled by something different,  right? So the baby boomers are fulfilled by how do the baby boomers experience fulfillment  working at a church.  

John - Yeah, it has to be different. It's different for everyone, I find it better with like,  depending on what their personality type is probably like, but to be as general as possible.  Yeah, I think I think baby boomers are always asking the question, you know, is there a clear  direction to where we're going? And is there a structure to bring it there? Otherwise, what are  we doing? I can't. And we've always found that in the moments where we're struggling to  figure out how to get there. If you have someone who is of that generation on your team,  they'll either help you get there, or they'll be like, I don't want to part of this. Because I, I can't handle organizational dysfunction in that way. Whereas someone who's Gen X, in Generation  X, we're like, yeah, there's got to be some dysfunction. You know, we like it when it's a little  messy. And so we found that, for them, it has to be, you have to be honest. So people who are Generation X, in those meetings, you have to be able to speak your mind, even if it's not  popular, it does matter how you feel. And then I think the more millennial generation, like I  said, is more interested in like, is, does this actually matter for someone else if we're growing, but it's only people coming from another church? We have no interest in that. That's not  winning, that's not being successful at all. That's just, you know, yeah, it makes us bigger, but they have a much. I think they have a more connected understanding to the church as a  whole in the community. They're not just interested in us growing, but what are we doing to  partner with other churches so that we're all being successful? So it's, it's challenging,  

Bruce - Keeps you busy. Well, you've got a shot here, any thing you'd like to say to a group of  people who are trying to improve their leadership skills, and they're desiring they're they're  taking this class because man they realize that they're in a leadership positions and what  would you say to them about the joys and the challenges of leadership? 

John - Yeah, I would say, the two things that I've always come back to as a leader, because so  many times you find yourself in uncharted territory, I think a leader has to be in uncharted  territory, where you're trying to push into something new, but because of that, sometimes  there is no playbook for it at all. And so the playbook is really being true to both yourself and  the vision that you have. And so there's a couple little sayings that I always have, that a  leader is passionately consistent over time. And so if you bring a passionate vision, and then  you are a consistent presence to people, because people have all kinds of different  expectations of you, what they need is consistency from you. So their expectations, kind of  gear towards your behavior and the way that you are a leader. And so you do that over time,  you're probably going to be successful. So passionate, consistent leadership, plus time is kind  of the formula that I always come back to. And then the second thing is when you're hiring  someone, my dad always said this, hire people that you trust, and then put out their fires. So  you make sure that at the end of the day, it's not even the most important thing isn't even  that they're the best possible person for the position, even though that's important and you  hope that they are. It's not the most important thing, the most important thing is, can you  trust them? And can they trust you? And then you support them with everything that you've  got. And the leaders that I've seen at the end of their career, and at the end of their time, at a position, you know, that they've done that, when their staff members say, that leader always  had my back, I would go anywhere with them. And I think that's always the goal of any leader  and what they want to hear at the end.  

Bruce - Thank you for being here, John. And this is John Burden and just sharing a little bit  about leadership from different perspectives. And next time we're going to continue to  explore this whole idea of working within a culture and bringing change to the culture