Video Transcript: Building Your Team

Welcome back in our exploration of leadership, now the last two sessions, we've talked about  change. And then then we had that example of change about the penguins living in Antarctica and how change happens as we follow John Kotter'rs, eight steps and some other reflections  on change. Well today, I want to take a shift. And you'll notice the title of this session is  building your team. Now just a reminder about where we've been, you've seen this model  forever and ever. A leader interacts with culture to provide a vision of a preferable future. And then as the provides the impetus for the prayer and the planning that is necessary in order to  make that future a reality. That's the definition we've been working with. And words to go with that as well. Well, we are in that section, the last section of a prayer and planning, how do you provide impetus for those kinds of things. And that's why I wanted to talk about change a  great deal, because one of the things that's going to happen as you do your strategic  planning, is that there's going to be change. And so we've looked at the dynamics of change.  Well, today, I want to talk about the fact that you have to build your team, if you're going to  be successful. leadership involves doing things and doing things well, but doing things that  will provide change toward a vision as people catch a vision, as people buy into that vision, as people buy into the planning that's necessary for that vision to become reality, something  happens, and that is that God usually blesses. And then the ministry begins to thrive and  grow, if it's in a church setting, the church will likely begin to grow, if not grow externally, with people coming in, it'll grow internally, with people just experiencing a deeper type of faith.  And as a result, there's going to be a greater and greater demand on you as a leader,  eventually, it's going to get to the point where you can't handle it anymore. By yourself. In the United States, there's a kind of a rule of thumb that says that you can pastor a church up to  about 150 people. And then you can be the jack of all trades, you can be the person who's  this multitalented person who directs the choir who preaches who plans worship, who teaches high school kids who teaches adults who provides planning for the church, all that sort of  thing, you can do that up to about 150 people. But after that, you are going to need some  significant key people stepping alongside you if you are going to grow beyond that. And we've talked before about the the pattern that usually is followed in a new church development that  will grow to about 200, and then dip and grow and dip and grow and dip because the leader  has not surrounded himself with other leaders who can help move toward a bigger vision. And then the question is, if you've got to do that, in order to be growingly, successful in your  ministry, who do you choose? I'm going to talk in the next session a little bit about John  Maxwell's law of the lid. But basically, it boils down to this, you and your organization will only grow to the point of the people that you have around you, you will be able to grow to their  capacity. And then one of two things happens you have to grow their capacity and your  capacity for leadership in ministry. Or you're going to have to get more people. Today we're  going to talk about getting the more people where do you go to get people who are going to  partner with you in a very real and genuine relationship that will allow for the further growth  of the kingdom? Who do you choose? Now, there's a variety of ways of going about that John  Wooden is well known in the United States. He was a legendary basketball coach at the  University of California at Los Angeles, UCLA, he still holds the record for most championships  in college basketball, and he has written books on leadership he is was sought for many years as a speaker. He was just a brilliant, brilliant leader. And so he he was asked once, who do you go for? Who do you look to when you're looking for somebody who's going to help you, your  team? Who do you recruit? And he said, "it's a simple answer, talent, talent, talent in that  order," his what his response was. Well, of course, you can do that you can look for somebody talented for what you need to experience and achieve what you need to have done. And and  that's good. That's a good thing. But you can have some talented, talented people around  you. And they will in fact, mess up your ministry greatly. I've experienced that. And I'll share a little bit about that as we go on in these sessions. But for right now, I just wanted to point out  that you've got to find a way or a system of identifying people who can come alongside you.  I'm going to talk about two of them today. One is a been popularized by Bill Hybels I don't  think it was original with him. But he said when he is looking for people who are going to be  his key partners to him Move the ministry forward from here to there. He says he looks for  these three things character, competence, and chemistry. The other person we're gonna look 

at is Patrick Lencioni. Patrick Lencioni is a consultant. He's a Christian. He's a Roman Catholic,  Christian is passionate about his faith. But he's also passionate about issues of leadership.  And he wrote a book not that long ago, a couple of years ago, called The Ideal Team Player  and talked about who do you look for to be the ideal team players who can help you grow  your organization. So we're gonna look at those two systems, he says, You've got to look for  somebody humble, hungry, and smart. So that's the agenda for today. So character, that's the first thing on the list. You look for people of character. Now when Hybels talks about this, and  he's written about it quite extensively. He never identifies character excepting it says, you  know, when somebody's lying and stealing from you, you know, you've got a character  problem, when it's when somebody is a backstabber, or gossiper you know, you've got a  character problem. Other than that, he doesn't talk about it. And so if you look further and say what is character really consist of, what are the qualities that you look for in a person of  character, it can be absolutely overwhelming. In fact, Randy Fox is somebody who's done a  study in this area, and here's his list of people of character. I won't even read through them  all. But you know, alertness, I know it's small for you on the PowerPoint. So I'll just read some  of them alertness, attentiveness, availability, benevolence, boldness, cautiousness,  compassion, contentment, creativity, decisiveness, deference, dependability, determination,  diligence, discernment, discretion, endurance, enthusiasm, faith, flexibility, forgiveness,  generosity, gentleness, gratefulness, honor, hospitality, humility, etc, etc, etc, etc. And you  say, my goodness, we're looking for Jesus here. Or at the very least, we're looking for  somebody like Barnabas in the New Testament, who's that son of encouragement. So how do  you? How do you choose the right person? How do you find the right person? Well, I want to  highlight just a few character qualities from Randy Fox's list, ones that I found very important, and in looking for people who will help me along the way. They're highlighted in red. First of  all, I look for somebody who exhibits contentment. Now, what I mean by that is not that  they're just always kind of even keeled. And they're never unhappy that they're just  contented where they are. They never want a raise and they never want a promotion. That's  not what I mean in contentment. What I mean is I look for people who are generally happy  where they are. There's a phenomenon in the church that happens here in the United States,  certainly in my community, that people will go from church to church, you know, and I had  that discussion with a couple not that long ago. And they'd come to us and I, you know, I was  interacting with them. It's Oh, what brought you to our church. And I heard this litany of  unhappiness at their previous three churches, they had attended this church in the  community, and they just found that, you know, there was no vision, there was no no place  they were going, they were unhappy with the, with the preaching. So they went over to this  church. And there they were unhappy about this thing about the fact that they had a kid that  was there, and they weren't received in their youth group well, and so they went over to this  church, and they found that, you know, after an initial burst of enthusiasm, things were really  bad. And then, you know, thank God, they found us because we were finally the perfect  church. Well, I can predict to you that within a year or so, they'll be gone from us and telling  the story about how bad we were, because that's just the way they are discontented. People  remain discontented. They won't find the magic bullet. Well, when you're looking for staff, and if you're looking outside of the church, you can listen for those keys. Are the people contented where they are? You're not trying to get them out of a bad situation. But But are they people  who are going to come to you and be positive because they're positive where they are? I, I've  hired some staff and I found wonderful answers to questions in this regards. Every one of our  staff people have gone through a really rough time and the previous church in which he was  in and yet he refused to bad mouth them. He refused to criticize them. Instead, he talked  about the future and what he wanted to see happen in ministry, and then his gifts in worship  and leading a worship department and interacting with people what do he thought God could  do? And that's that's the kind of person I want to hire somebody contentment. dependability  is another word there that some highlighted, are they dependable? Do they show up on time?  Do they? Are they somebody you can give work to, and have them be responsible? Get to that one in a minute, responsible in fulfilling that work? Are there people that you just say, yep,  you know, that's somebody I can lean on to get something done. In this team of leaders that 

you are creating, when somebody is not dependable, it raises large question marks. We had a  seminary intern with us a while back. And lo and behold, he would just be missing meetings.  And so you'd sit and talk with him about, you know, how do you keep your calendar anyway?  Because we got a mini meeting schedule. I expected him to be there. He's not there. And that creates a question mark, for me about his ability to have the character to live with me in  ministry. Are you dependable? Are you reliable? Faith is another one. Now here, I don't  necessarily mean. And neither does Randy Fox don't mean a saving faith, you know that  they've come to Jesus Christ, but faith, meaning and understanding that God is in control that  we believe in a sovereign God, somebody who is overall, and somebody who is going to bring  out the best of what we bring to him in our offering of leadership in church. And so you look  for somebody who's somebody of faith that they speak about it, they they speak about their  desire to serve God, and their belief that things are going to go in a certain positive direction.  Yeah, there'll be glitches, there'll be problems along the way. But I believe that God is calling  us to go forward. Those are the kind of people you look to, for your team. Forgiveness. No  matter how well intentioned you are, as a team, you're going to hurt each other eventually.  And so you need people who are willing to say, you know, I'm not going to let this color our  relationship, I'm going to forgive you, I'm going to forgive you. It's going to be difficult  forgiveness, we could spend a whole day on forgiveness, three or four lessons on forgiveness. It's a complex, it's a complex kind of idea. And it's a complex process. It's not a one time thing that you just say, I forgive you, but are people committed to working together? Even through  the tough questions? That's the idea of forgiveness, there. Humility. Is it about them? Or is it  about the God we serve? Or the ministry we serve? Say more about that when we get to  Lencioni stuff, loyalty? Now, I don't mean you know, they're loyal to you. Sold out loyalty to  you that they'll never question any decision you make. They'll never say anything bad about  you anywhere, anytime. But loyalty for me means are the there people who have  demonstrated in their other places of employment and their other experiences have been  demonstrated that they are willing to communicate honestly and forthrightly, and they're not  going to go behind the back, they're not going to try to steal your position. They're not going  to try to dismantle your ministry. It's devastating. I know of a pastor who came into a church,  there was an existing staff there. And so he began to try to work with that staff. And lo and  behold, one day, the chairman of the elders came to him and said, you know, we had three of  your staff members, visit our elders meeting, they called for an elders meeting. And they  came without me, they came, and they were complaining about the way some things are  going. This was after that pastor had been there for about six months. And he was furious, of  course. And he went to try to bring correction to that situation by first of all, talking with his  elders about whether they should have allowed that kind of meeting. And then secondly, he  met with the chairman of the elders, and each of those people, in order to talk about how do  we relate together here as a team, not just oh, I'll buy anything you say, but if you've got an  issue, I want you loyal enough to our relationship, loyal enough to our team, that you've  talked to the person instead of talking about the person. And if that's not the kind of person  you're going to be, we don't need you on this team. Responsibility. I spoke about that a little  bit. It's just being responsible. If you're given a task, it's fulfilled, if you're given an idea you're going to follow through on it. And then truthfulness. If you find somebody fudging the truth.  That's a character issue. That's a huge character issue. And amazingly, some people get into  ministry like that, well they, they'll miss an appointment. And they'll say, oh, you know, I, I  was stuck. My car broke down, or I was at the hospital making a call and I I forgot or  whatever, when the truth is they just playing forgot, if you start seeing that sort of thing  happen if something goes awry, and they aren't willing to take the responsibility for it, but  pass it on and spread some untruth about somebody else in your ministry. It's, it's time to  have a conversation. So that's the next question is okay, if somebody doesn't demonstrate  this kind of character, what do you do about it? If they if they show up not having some of  those basic character traits, you don't hire them. Now, that means you're going to have to do  some Good legwork and finding out what they were like in their previous places of  employment, you're going to have to find out who their friends were, you're going to have to  have discussions beyond the references. In fact, I worked with a consultant once he said you 

never believe the first reference that you consult. So rather you ask that person who else  could I talk to about so on so and you take their information, and you go to the next person,  say, you know, I, I, you know, so and so and I'm just looking, we're thinking of hiring him or  her. And so I'm just looking for some information, can you tell me about them, and keep on  going that way until you get an accurate picture of the person. But if they come up short, it  say, if you hear someone say, You know what they are, and one of these characteristics of  character is not there, then you say, you know, I'm not going to hire that person, I'm not  going to take that risk. Now, sometimes you would raise competence above character, Hybel  said, I never do that anymore. Never. Because character is so important, that that has to  follow competence. So character is vitally important. You look for people of character who are  going to join you, they might be people from within your church that are being raised up, they might be people that are outside, and you're looking for somebody to come in and assist you  in leadership and be part of a team with you. Make sure you check out their character  carefully. Next thing you look at is competence. And I put on the PowerPoint there shoot high.  In other words, when you're thinking of what you need in a person, what what do you need?  Do you need a worship leader? Do you need administrator and operations person? Do you  need a youth youth pastor, a youth worker, shoot for the best possible person, you can get.  Look at what gifts are needed for a good fulfillment of that particular job. And then go after  the best, the brightest, go after the ones who have a track record that, that you can say,  Wow, this is what I want done in my church, this is what I want done in my ministry in my  ministry area. And so you're looking for the possible best that you can get. Now, within a  church, there's often a tendency as somebody who works in a church to settle. In other words, you know, we feel like we'll never be able to get that person who's one of the top of the list.  And so, you know, we've got this person who's willing, and I just want to give you a caution  there a huge caution. Because oftentimes, you'll find people who just don't have the  competence necessary to fulfill what you need done, might be good people might be nice  people, but they don't have it. Now, occasionally, in a lower level position in a church, you  may hire somebody who doesn't have the right experience. And maybe they don't have the  right education, but they show potential. hire that person in at a lower level, but you don't put that kind of person in a key position, because it's going to take so much time and energy on  your part. And when it comes to getting rid of people or firing them, it's awfully awfully  difficult in a church, let me talk about that in a few moments. So you look for somebody's  competency, you shoot high, you try to get the best possible person you can get. Now, you  may not get the top person, how we recently did a search for a new staffing position that we  had created, it was actually taking two part time positions and combining them into what we  saw as a vision for a renewed outreach admissions program. And so I was surprised at the  quality of applicants that we got. And, man, there were two of them that right away, bubbled  to the top we had like 20 of them, we we, you know, shrunk that down to about four that we  were going to do interviews on site interviews, we did telephone interviews, etc. So we get  them in, and the top person, you know, the question always is, why would you move from  where you are near Chicago, in this case, up to where we are to do ministry here when it  looks like you've been incredibly successful where you are. And the references said that said,  this guy is terrific. And so, you know, we asked all of those kinds of questions. And his answer  was that, you know, both he and his wife had parents in the area, they were getting older,  and they they really felt a call to relocate. And if that was going to be in ministry, that would  be fine. But because they felt this call to minister to their parents their going to be moving to  our area regardless. And so we talked with that person, and that person quickly came, you  know, bubbling to number one, we realized it would be a huge cultural shift for our staff,  because this guy was such a high powered a leader and he had experience in a church that  was far larger than ours with a far different kind of culture and but he was going to be  somebody who could take us to the next step. Well, lo and behold, he took himself out of the  running after interacting with us for a while. Maintained contact with him after that he's doing well and continues to pray for our church. And I continue to pray for him. But the next person  on the list was also incredibly, incredibly competent. And a list of experience that said, this  person could do this extremely well. But we had some concerns. This person had been in 

ministry, she had been in ministry for seven years, she left that she went into a consulting  kind of ministry, where she consulted with churches, and had moved down south she herself  had come from down south was comfortable living down there. And now we are inviting her to come to Michigan, to be part of our staff. And I remember we began to approach Why did you  leave the church ministry. And her honesty was incredible to me. Now, here's this is character  and competence combined. She had had an issue with the senior pastor there. And in  character, she had gone to talk to the man and, and they had worked out their differences.  But after a while it looked to her and to the senior pastor, like, you know what, the future here for me is not bright women in ministry there and that church were being frowned on a women were being limited. And she wanted a greater opportunity. And so she left and I had a  conversation with that pastor, and he just said, you know, this is a woman of character and  incredible competence, some of the stuff she's done, you know, now six years later, is were  just incredible. And are ongoing today, so you look for the most competent person you can  find. Then finally, chemistry. Do they energize or deplete you? Ken Blanchard, who wrote The  One Minute Manager and has written many leadership books and has taught on leadership  extensively said you will know within one minute of talking to somebody, whether there's  somebody you like, or are they somebody who are depleting to you in in energy? Now, I think  that's a bit optimistic. But the reality is, this has got to be somebody you are going to work  with closely. It's got to be somebody who's going to fit into your team. And so there's got to  be time spent with the team and this person, but time spent with you time spent with spouses together if that's if that's a relevant issue, time spent in order to get to know one another and  is this kind of person you like? In fact Hybels, Bill Hybels said in one article on this, they said  he I, after 30 years of ministry he said he went to church every day, and to his job. He said he was thrilled, happy he said, cause he got to work with some of the best people some of the  most fun people around. Well, that's what you should have on your team. And so the more  you can push toward that by getting people of chemistry around you, the better off you are  now, the converse is true as well. If they there is no chemistry or you don't sense, you got a  lot of questions to say, oh, man, that person just is not like me. That's a caution flag. So  you've got to ask the right questions. And you've got to be somebody who's interacting with  them. And it's interesting. Many years ago, now, I was called into a position to be a co pastor.  In other words, that there were two going to be two pastors in this church, and they would  share some things equally, though, they would have specific responsibilities. And that was  something that was a little new, and a little bit unknown at that time. And so I had some  questions about it. I called somebody in my denominational office and I said, Okay, you know, how many of these exist in my denomination? And how many would you say are successful?  Interesting response, he said, there are 11 of them. He said, I would consider one of them  successful. So I said, Okay, what went wrong in those other 10 as well as what went right, in  that one, and in his opinion, there were several things, but one of the key things that I found  out later, as I did research on those kinds of relationships, was that one of the things that  made co pastorates fail was the relationship between their wives, interestingly enough, so  you look for chemistry all around, I think it's gonna be people you want to go to work with. So  that's that's Hybels guideline. These are the kinds of people you look for. And so you devise  questions, and you devise a process so that you get to know them, so you can find out their  character. You do interviews with people who know them, you have conversations with them,  do they have character, they have competence, have they demonstrated a track record of  success in the kind of areas that you want them successful? And it doesn't have to be an  exact match. Like, you know, they were youth pastor here and you're calling them to be a  youth pastor, but they've demonstrated competence. Some of the people that we've hired  were people who were competent in a variety of areas because they had developed skills and  working with people. And that brings us to a Patrick Lencioni. Consultant, prolific author.  Several years ago, he wrote a book called The Five Dysfunctions of a Team and was very  popular and used by a variety of teams and, and I recommend reading anything by Patrick  Lencioni. It's a Christian, as I said, Roman Catholic Christian, but he is not a Christian writer. In other words, he's not writing for the Christian audience. He's writing for the business  audience. And one of the things he began thinking about after talking about The Five 

Dysfunctions of a Team was okay, who is that ideal team member? You know, how do we  avoid these dysfunctions where you get the right people together, in fact, he developed this  model, the ideal team player is the person the one circle representing hum, humbleness,  humility, and the other hunger and the other smart smarts. Now, one of my goals here always in this class is to give you some resources. And so here are some that you can put down. The  first one, the top one, table group, a team player assessment, ideal team player assessment  is a personal assessment that you can take to see whether you are this kind of person, and  it's all online, it's free, you can take it and determine, oh, this is a, this is the kind of person I  am this may be areas where I have to work in order to be a better team member. It's a  wonderful questionnaire to use with your staff when you have a team together to talk with  them about how are we doing in these areas? If these are the ideal team players? How do we  compare that the second one there, you'll notice has the big title interview questions? In other words, again, the Lencioni organization gives these away to you for free. There interview  questions that you can ask potential candidates for joining your team that will allow you to  discover and explore how humble are they? How hungry are they? How smart are they? So  let's look at his model for just a moment. First of all, humble. Now this means they lack ego,  but not really lack ego. I mean, anybody who's successful has an ego and they want to do to  get ahead. But is their ego under control? Or is it all about them? Now I speak as a as a  recovering narcissist. I, one of the counselors I went to years ago, said, You know, you've got  some narcissistic tendencies. Now, if you're not familiar with Greek mythology, Narcissus was  a beautiful young man in ancient Greece. And he was constantly looking for the perfect  person but couldn't find them. Everybody fell short in his, his his evaluation as far as their  looks go. And then one day, he goes down, he bends down to take a drink out of a stream,  and he sees his own reflection, and he falls in love with himself. That's a narcissist. narcissists  usually have huge egos. And everything that happens is really about them. In fact, there's an  old adage says, you know that, hey, you're just a bit player, the movie is about me, right?  You're a bit player in life. Well, people like that don't make good team players. They are the  kind of people who will try to take the credit. And they'll try to emphasize themselves rather  than the team. Now, you know, I've had to go through a period of time where I've had to try  to, in the spirit, given gifts, the gifts of the Spirit, one of them is self control, to say, you know, what, I asking the Holy Spirit to prompt me every time that I show pride somewhere, every  time where I want to take the credit. And occasionally I'll hear a voice from the spirit that way, I think of a time when we had in worship, of video and music, combination presentation, that  was incredible. It was wonderful. And my area of responsibility, one of them was the worship  service. And so I had a team of people, musicians and other people who would plan worship  together. And this, one of our worship leaders came up with this idea and put it all together.  Now I could have said, Yeah, you know, we've got a good thing going and yep, this is this is  I'm, I'm the leader here. I'm the one who's responsible for it. And I heard the Spirit speak to  me, as soon as somebody said that when I came out of the worship service, said I just want to thank you for showing that. I want to thank you for the creativity of it. I want to thank you for  the impact it had on my life. And I got a choice right there. And Holy Spirit spoke to me and  said, you know, this is a chance and to be able to say, well, then you should go talk to so and  so. Because they're the ones who put this together and yes, didn't they do a marvelous job?  The humble person is somebody who deflects credit deflects credit to the team. You know, if  we're successful, look at all of these people had a role in that success. And there are people  who deflect credit to God. Yeah, you know, Isn't God good? And it's in His Word. Wonderful.  Isn't it marvelous? That's the kind of person who's humble. And so you look for people who  are humble. And you follow his questioning technique to determine, you know, when was the  last time there was a great success in your ministry in your in your job? And you know what  went into that? And what was your part in it? And how do you react to it today, all of those  kind of questions will help you determine humility. so humble, our next one is hungry. Now,  not physically hungry. That's not what he's talking about. He's talking about somebody who's  self motivated, who wants to move ahead, who's passionate, who's diligent, somebody who  wants to do great things, not somebody who's just kind of drifting through life, and they're  going to drift through life in your organization, but somebody who's passionate about 

accomplishing great things, and in our case, as Christians, Christian leaders, doing great  things in the kingdom of God, doing great things for God's glory, doing great things for the  changing of the eternal destiny of men, women and children. That's what we're about. And so  you're looking for somebody who's hungry, who wants to make a difference in the world. And  so you follow his questions, and they'll give you questions that will help you determine how  hungry this person is. And then the third thing that he says is the ideal team player is  somebody smart. Now, he's not talking about intellectual smarts. And he's not talking about  book learning. He's talking about people smarts. In other words, somebody who's  interpersonally, appropriate interpersonally aware of other people around him and his people  smart as far as being able to read people being able to read whether they are they're  appropriate or not to read, whether they are hurting or not to read, whether they're  depressed, are you able to relate to people? Well, that's smart. Now, if you'll follow his  questionnaires, you'll find all kinds of questions that have to do with that if you're interviewing someone over a period of time, you can ask them questions, experiences, how they acted in  the past with people, how do they interact with people that shows that, you know, they've got the smarts, they'll create scenarios as questions that will allow the person to speak into this is what I would do in that situation, to find out how smart they are. Now, another word way to  put this would be that there are people who are not just extroverts, introverts as well, but  people who relate to people with a lot of common sense. Got a good counselor friend who  says, you know, there's nothing common about common sense. So that's why I get paid a lot  of money. But you're looking for people who demonstrate common sense in their relationships with people. Now, how do you deal with these people? How do you find them? How do you  identify them? And that's the word here, Get help. Get help. I realized, several years ago, after my first few hires, when the church I was serving get large enough that we were looking to  hire further people, I realized that I did not have the capacity by myself to hire the right  people. In fact, there's gifts in discernment, that that's a spiritual gift, discernment is able to  determine whether something is really of God or you just sense something wrong. And, you  know, I've determined that every team I get, and I always get a team together to search for a  position that is open. That's been a regular practice. And it's not only me anymore, but within  the church, I served a variety of people at various levels, you get a team together, and one of  the people on that team should be somebody with a gift of discernment. Because if you make  the wrong choice, you get the wrong person, it will be incredibly painful. I've done that more  often than I care to admit. And it's created havoc, the worst experience was hiring somebody  and my wife who has a gift of discernment. You know, in that process of getting together as  families, leadership, families and couples, you know, raised a red flag saying this guy, you  know, you're going to have difficulty and it's in spite of it when I hadn't hired him. And yet, we had difficulty. Three years later, the church, the congregation wouldn't approve the budget  until we got rid of him. And that's how bad things got bad hires or something. So get help. If  you need to hire a consultant, look inside the church as well as outside the church. If you're  looking inside, you've got somebody already who's bought into the vision. I put an example of banking, I heard a banking researcher talking a while back, and he described his research into what makes a department of a bank successful. And what makes this department more  successful than this and what happens when people shift responsibilities. And so what he said is, you know, the normal responses, you know, your bank is not doing well in the loan  department. So you go to this bank, who has got a terrific loan department and you hire their  head person. That's the person you're after. And so you do everything you can to get that  person and you hire him and he comes to your bank, your loan department and you put him  in charge there. Generally speaking he said the productivity of that department will go down  for the next five years. Because it wasn't just his responsibility, but it was the team over here  that did it. And so if you really want to be responsible, you get that team and bring them over  here. But better you raise somebody from internally in order to fulfill the part of the vision  that you need. You need done there. So these are just some ideas. You know, we could talk  about this for weeks, I guess. We could talk about this in many sessions. But getting the right  people around you is vitally, vitally important. Now, next session, we're going to talk about,  okay, you've got these people, you've got a certain number of them, and how do you get 

them growing as individuals and growing in their capacity so that they are able to expand  ministry in that way. So it isn't just a matter of finding the right person out there somewhere  that you're hiring, but it's a mat a matter of growing these people so that they can take on  more responsibility and further the kingdom that you are growing in that way. So we'll see you next time.