Video Transcript: Dark Side - Co-dependent Leaders

Mark - In this video, we're going to talk about the shadow side, the dark side, of  codependency. Now, perhaps you've heard of codependency in a magazine  such as good housekeeping or family circle or something popular by Well, you  saw an Oprah the other day, or maybe another talk show host how  codependency is such a problem. Well, to tell you the truth, it's real, and yes, it  is a problem for all of us, and as we look at the other dark sides, control  narcissism and also paranoia, passive aggressive. We now look at  codependency, because this is where, in contrast to the control dark side, we  now see how we can switch roles. We at first, for example, we feel we need to  control everybody and everything around us, if that becomes a problem, but if  you flip it, we then switch roles, and we become the object of someone who is  dealing with control issues as the codependent. Now, what is codependency?  What is codependency? I have a couple handouts, and I place these online as  PDF files that are there, and I'd like to go over them here briefly and just read  them to you sort of what is codependency? First, codependency has to do with  how my good feelings about who I am stem from being loved by you, or my  good feelings about who I am stem from receiving approval from you or your  struggle affects my serenity. My mental attention focuses on solving your  problems or relieving your pain. Or my mental tension is focused on pleasing  you, protecting you, and my self esteem is bolstered by relieving your pain. I feel better when I I solve your problems and not my own problems. Or my own  hobbies and interests are put aside. My time is spent sharing your interests and  hobbies, or your clothing and your personal appearance are dictated by my  desires as I feel you are a reflection of me. Or your behavior is dictated by my  desires as I feel you are a reflection of me. I am not aware of how I feel. I am  aware of how you feel. I'm not aware of what I want. I ask what you want. I'm not aware I assume the dreams I have for my future are linked to you. My fear of  rejection determines what I say or do, and my fear of your anger determines  what I say or what I do. I use giving as a way of feeling safe in our relationship,  my social circle diminishes as I involve myself with you. I put my values aside in  order to connect with you, I value your opinion and way of doing things more  than my own. And finally, the quality of my life is in direct relation to the quality of yours, as we say in recovery. And this handout, by the way, is from the  Celebrate Recovery resource that we have online, and could download it, put it  in your toolbox, have it available for yourself as you do ministry with others, but  also especially looking at yourself. How am I doing? I often look at this checklist  and say, yeah, how is my mental attention focused on pleasing others, or am I  aware of how I feel? How am I doing today? Because this is what we call in  recovery, stinking thinking. We call it stinking thinking because quite honestly, it's it takes us into very unhealthy patterns in relationships with others, whether they are in authority over us, or in our marriage relationships or in our collegial  relationships colleagues at work or even people at the deli counter at our local 

grocery store. Codependency comes in many, many forms now coming back to  the dark side of codependency, or how codependency is a dark side, because  as we look back at Family of Origin issues, what happened with mom and dad  and family and so on, and how perhaps their sense of meaning is control over  me as a child. May have created an unhealthy pattern of behavior and  dependency on them and then transferred to others. So what are the causes?  What are the causes of the codependent dark side? First, as I said, family of  origin, dependency issues. Mom says, Go to your room and don't come out of  there until I say so, you probably had that before, or you have. Dad say, if you  don't do what I tell you to do, you won't amount to anything. You need to do  things based on the schedule. You're out of line. You should feel that way. Don't  show your emotions. You're talking to your friends again, go to go to your room.  We'll talk tomorrow morning, or the classic, wait till your father comes home.  Now, sometimes those situations are expected, because we can be pretty  naughty as kids, but other times, that takes us into the domain of how our  families can go too far, and they don't step back to understand who we are  made in God's image. And then we think that we've done so wrong that there's a debt we have to pay back as an adult dependency family of origin also rigid,  legalistic or oppressive family systems. And I alluded to this in my examples just  now. But then this goes into the area of acute abuse, abuse that is uncalled for,  unwarranted and really where a child needs to be removed from the home,  things of that nature. Now, the previous video with Pastor Greg, who we have  this video today as well. He discussed his story about being sexually abused  and that, my friends, illustrates how that is way too far. It is criminal, it is wrong,  and God shows us how to give life, as we read in Scripture, where we see that  these behaviors are not what God wants, and we need to be also too, with being rigid or legalistic, those other examples too, of how, if you're not at the dinner  table by 5pm and at 5:01 that you don't eat, or other things where, in church,  You have to sit a certain way. You ever been there I have or you get pinched in  the pew. Stop it. Look straight ahead. Don't look to your left, to your right. Maybe that's your church tradition. Or some of you from more Pentecostal traditions are saying, I can't relate to that at all, but we look at how our families can go into  that rigid or legalistic or oppressive directions another cause, the need to keep  the peace. Mom and Dad are fighting. Don't know why, or everything around you is a war zone because of the environment that you are living in or at school. It  doesn't even seem to be order. And here in America, we hear about these  shootings in high schools and other places, and we think, what is this world  coming to? Peace. We need to keep the peace that's up to us when really it's in  God's hands. Codependency, then we have characteristics, characteristics of  codependency. First, the inability to say no. Now I will say, for example, I am a  person who struggles with codependency. I feel that I need to say yes to many,  many things and also please many, many people. Realistically and I've been 

taught all my life that I can't it's not realistic. But there's still that sense that  struggle that I have to, I have to say, yes, otherwise, what will they think? And  we always have to say, Who is the they that says you are not measuring up.  Because right in that thinking is also the whole idea that we fall short if I don't  say yes. So the inability to say no is a problem, because we can say no and we  should say no to many things as well as say yes to many things too we need  balance also the obsessive fear of disappointing others, again related to the  inability of saying no and the problem of saying yes, too much, and the  appearance of benevolence, appearing that I'm kind to other people all the time,  that I need to be the Savior, perhaps, of Someone else's pain or chaos, and  repressed anger and hostility. I still go back to that, that example of where the  dad will say to the son or the daughter, don't express your feelings, especially  between a father and son, when you express your feelings, son, you're a sissy,  or you're not strong, or you don't measure up, or you amount to nothing, all Lies, all lies, however. We know that that does occur in many a family system, and we know that even though that child as he or she grows up may not show the  emotion based on conditioning by the dad or by the mom or both parents as well as teachers and the culture that that he or she is growing up in. There's anger,  there's hostility, there's there's things that that they that need to come out, but  they're not allowed to, hence codependency, because we're dependent on  someone else's serenity, someone else's agenda, as opposed to The agenda  God has for you and me. Challenges as we face our codependent issues, we  need to learn to say no. We need to resist false guilt. Friends, I can't tell you  enough how I grew up with the issue of false guilt, especially when I would  displease my mother. My mother is a strong personality, and yeah, she was  figuring things out as I was the only child for my the first seven and a half years  of my life. And then my sister was born, and that changed everything. And I  always felt guilty if I didn't do things quite to the level or the measure that she  had in mind, or a teacher again. And I grew up in a culture in my childhood  where there were many who projected on me and other students, expectations  that seem to be a bit unrealistic, high standards. No problem with those when  we are in school and we can learn and have excellence, that's not what I'm  talking about. I'm talking about the delivery of expectations, the behavior of  those who are over us or those who we relate to and false guilt can some be a  challenge to deal with and on into our adult years. So refusing responsibility for  feelings of others is another challenge someone else's chaos is not my  emergency. Because if someone else is creating their emergency, that's not my  chaos. It is in God's hands, because God has everything in his hands, and with  God, we place other people into his hands. Are there support systems? Is there  the church? Absolutely, it's part of God's plan. Do we have police? Do we have  nurses and do we have doctors? Absolutely, so we need to remember that it's  not up to us all the time. Now, sometimes we are obligated, with our brother and 

sister to carry each other's burdens, as the scripture says, but we also need to  be mindful that we are not always in the position to fix people, and we can't fix  people, and we shouldn't fix people the minute we try to fix someone else's  issues or or, of course, to feel, always feel responsible for others feelings, that's  the moment we go down into a very dark path, a path where we do ourselves in  emotionally and spiritually, where we begin to negate ourselves, where we help  others at our own expense, and then we have nothing left to give. So we need to have balance here, as far as the codependent dark side, and also we have to  deal with the challenge of living with unresolved conflict. We talked about that  life debt, the debt we know we can't pay back coming out of family of origin, and  how we need to depend on God to take care of that, and where we have that  unresolved conflict placed into God's hands, in the in the mode of forgiving  ourselves forgiving others, as well as to Say, I have to let go and let God heal,  restore God's bigger than the conflict. So as human beings, as followers of  Jesus, we then have opportunity to rise above codependent patterns the  patterns I just read at the beginning of this session, and to gain more insight, I  invited pastor Greg to join us another time. Pastor Greg, welcome back, and  

Greg - thanks for having me again.  

Mark - Of course, it's fantastic to learn from you, and last session on  compulsivity and control issues that your story was compelling, and I think God  will use that story in a big way everywhere as as this course and all the courses  with CLI are all over the world, and today we talk about codependency. I know  that you've mentioned sexual abuse. You talked about your crack addiction, your family of origin, that just kind of shoved you to the side, and also, you know,  even turned a blind eye to the sexual abuse. I know that you've shared that with  me too, but as I read the codependency statements, what are some thoughts?  And again, you're a recovery coach, and you're dealing with many individuals  who are struggling with the same issues, and we all do what? What are some  reflections you have on codependency as you look back at your own journey  with codependency,  

Greg - self empowerment, what we know clinically as codependency, there's  another term, other worth that is, you know, giving your sense of value and  purpose to another. You know, being dependent upon someone who's  dependent on something else, which means that you're out of touch with  yourself. So that was important for me in my journey of recovery to as we used  the term previous session, love the skin you're in, okay, and by loving the skin  you're in. And that's with it's flaws, and that's what it's defects, but it's yours, and  the only way you can do that, really, is through the eyes of Lord in Scripture,  where it says one that we could say overuse. We're fearfully and wonderfully 

made. Okay? Now, because of my desire to be whole and to be well, I wanted to explore that desire is a very powerful emotion, because we let nothing and no  one interfere, stop or hinder our desires. Okay, that's something that, as  opposed to need to do, need to do. We're more resistant and more rebellious  and defiant. But the things that we want to do, we're innovative and creative and ingenious about getting them done. So I wanted to know who I am as well as  whose I am. And so from that, not that I wanted to be, you know, standoffish, but embracing of that. I know that I have a God has a purpose for me, and I have a  purpose in him, yeah. Okay. And so one thing I had to be aware of is. Is my  codependency tendencies. You know, whereas I needed someone else to give  me or confer value, worth importance and significance to me, okay, because it  made me if I continued in that trend that it made me vulnerable to abuses,  different forms of abuse, or continuation of the abuses that I want so desperately desire to escape from in the past and so through relationship with him and is to  be, you know, self important, empowering, but not independent. Can I use a  term like interdependence? You know, I am independent of other people, where  I can say I love the skin I'm in. I walk in the skin I'm in, but I have an  interdependence with God, because I know I can't make it in this world, or desire to make it in this world without him, you know, and so in because of the work  that he is continually doing my life, I believe it's lifelong. Okay, it's not an event.  It's a process. It's an experience well,  

Mark - and I know you did. You did some prison time, and in prison those three  years, yes, comment on how these challenges, and, of course, the  characteristics of codependency, what? What you know in the prison culture,  how was that played out?  

Greg - Culture is very challenging because, you know, it's almost as though  codependency is promoted, yeah, you know, and it's and you really have to work hard not to buy into it, you know, it's like the crabs in the barrel, you know, we're  all in here together. We desperately want to get out, but we want to get out at  somebody else's expense, you know, whereas, you know, if hurt and pain and  wrongdoing got me in, it's not going to be what I use to get out, you know. So  that really gave me an opportunity, especially prison was like, Ooh, the stark  look in the mirror. Okay, it was beyond what other people had done places and  things. It was about my choices or lack thereof that resulted in its consequence,  and there, because of the shock of being incarcerated, you know that really, I've  done this to my life. I said I'm gonna have to meaningfully do something  different, you know? And first it became a self examination, self examination.  And then I know it sounds cliche, but it does work when you talk about 12 Steps, first step is making that admission. I had admit that I was powerless to my not  only addiction, but my own behavior, and my life had become unmanageable, 

you know. So it was not looking about, you know what someone else did and  when they did it, but it was like looking at me, because this is the reality I'm in,  and I don't want to, I don't want to continue to be in this, you know, there's one  thing about being incarcerated, you know, physically, but then it's being  emotionally and spiritually incarcerated, You know. So, you know, I resisted  those trappings and seductions of the prison environment. You know, you got to  get along be alone, or whatever adage that they use. It's just that I don't want to  be here. I'm not buying into this, but I'm going to salvage this experience. I'm  going to use it as a learning and a stepping tool, you know, stepping stone  learning tool. What have you to improve myself, you know? And the one thing is, is that you know, of being empowered through the word of God, that I don't have to be what these other people are doing, what the other do, but to work on me,  you know? And so that's where I became really attuned and acutely aware of the traps of codependency. I've got to pick a book man, and start reading and  learning for myself, because I don't want to repeat this, you know, it is not like  I'm being motivated, Mark, by the darkness, but by the light. It's not I'm running  from not wanting to be incarcerated again, even though I don't want to, but I'm  running to light fresh opportunity, you know, to. To be free, to be me, you know,  as what is is outlined in Scripture, you know, and that's why I challenge anyone  today. Yeah, we can walk you through 12 Steps and whatnot, but to really work  them, you have to walk with Christ in them, because all they are are just man's  version of trying to reach God. But then Christ is God's provision of reaching  man,  

Mark - right? And I think what you're so well describing is how dependency on  Christ is appropriate. Dependency in Christ is what we ought, where we ought to be. And the scripture says, Being step of the spirit, control, sync with the Spirit,  as we say, in technical, in techie terms, as we this guy's a techie guy. I mean, he runs our Facebook page for community recovery, and also runs our website, and it keeps going. And so I thank God for your gifts, and because then that we work in team. Ah, working in team means interdependence. And so what you talk  about in terms of relationships being in the prison, how that force, because  there's a lot of controlling factors in the prison system, in the prison experience  as an incarcerated person, where you're forced to be well under the control, for  example, other domineering prisoners, and they try to put you in the corner to be co dependent, then on them, where their agenda is, what you will then be. And  what you just said now was to become free, where then you become all Christ  has created you to be. That brings us back to the whole thing of saying no, of  releasing the false guilt, of forgiving others for you, not for them to be set free,  so that in Christ we are free. Indeed the son set you free. You are free indeed  John 5. And so God brings us into these, these opportunities to be set free  through the power of Christ, the transformation through Christ. And you're 

saying, Boy, it sounds like sanctification. It sounds a lot like, oh, the whole  restorative process that God outlined in Scripture absolutely that is recovery.  Recovery is restoration. Restoration is recovery. And how healthy relationships  start with our relationship with God, and then as God transforms us to become  like Christ, but also in the skin that we're in and how we become free to be me in the way Christ has meant for me to be, and that I'm not Greg, and Greg is not  me, and vice versa, but I am created in the image of God, so I can be who I'm  meant to be. So my serenity, my thinking, my pattern of life, is not dependent on  Greg's pattern or anybody else's. I'm dependent completely on a risen Savior,  Jesus, and he tells me to be and Galatians 5 speaks to this again, too, to be  free, therefore, to yield the fruits of the spear, love, joy, peace, patience,  kindness, gentleness, self control, self control. That's huge. We looked at control as a shadow side, and now we look at the codependency as a shadow side. And what happens with codependency is that, based upon this list, my behavior is  dictated by my desires as I feel your reflection of me, that indirectly can become  a form of control as well. Both ways. We just change roles in relationships. And  so we need to yield everything over to the control of the Holy Spirit so that we  can have self control. And as Paul says, against such things, there is no law,  nothing can take that away. And so friends, we invite you to dig deep in the  scriptures. Dig deep with examining your relationships with those who are in  authority over you, as well as those who you work with and those who. You, you  you minister to, is quite easy. For example, as you minister to people, and  pastor, Greg and I have ministered to many people, and as a recovery coach, as as pastor, as teacher, it's it can become unhealthy quickly. And trying to help  others because we want, we feel we need to fix them. No. God does the fixing,  and that's a big part of the shadow side. And God gives you victory over that  keeps things in check, because we keep struggling with this all of our lives. God  will help you to be a better servant of him Christ, and a better helper to others.  Thanks for watching, and we look forward to the next tape when we talk about  another dark side.