Video Transcript: What is Time?

Henry Reyenga - Henry Reyenga here again with Dr. Roy Clouser. And now  you're gonna study time, time, time is an ever rolling streaming bears all her  sons away. They fly forgotten. Before the break of day. So what is time?  

Dr. Clouser - Well, it's not a what. It's a mode of existence. Maybe the most  basic characteristic of the created world. Okay. I think it's real. I don't go along  with Augustine and others who have said it's merely subjective. Kahn and  Augustine are on the same side there we, we project time into our experience,  we organize it so that there's a succession of events. Okay, I don't think that's  right. The New Testament itself says several times that God created time, and  that God is before time before the ages of time, right? Some people have tried  to poke at that well, before time before means just means God's independent of  time, right? But in Hebrews, it says that God has created the ages of time  through Christ, okay. The Jews of Christ day viewed all of history as divided into  ages, the age of the patriarchs, and there's the age of the prophets, and there's  the age to come. And that's going to be the age of the Messiah, right? And we're gonna throw off the Roman rule, right? The Messiah is going to bring peace on  earth. And that's why his disciples say to Jesus, is it now, is it now you're going  to restore the kingdom is this is this when the age is going to be ushered in?  Right? Sometimes the word age is translated world, the world to come. It says  the age to come, right. So they're looking for that. And it enforces that time's  real, it reinforces, we all have that impression. Anyway. Something else is self  evident to everybody. Time moves on. We didn't hold her with someone, and  also that it can't be reversed. I'll give you another line. This is what it says the  moving finger writes. And having written moves on, nor all your piety nor wit, can cancel half a line nor all your tears wash out a word of what's done is done can't  be undone. That's from the Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam. Wow. It's a something  comes back to me every so often.  

Henry Reyenga - Well, I know it like for every thing. There's a reason. There's a  time every for everything under the sun. I mean, again, you get the concept of  time. It's certainly real. So so in some ways, time comes into play in anything we do we the second we're born, we experience time. Absolutely. The moment  we're gone, or we die. Now. Do we then experience a different dimension of  time? Now we're any eternal time we're now with God is it timelessness now. I  mean, some people would say the soul eternally exists. These are all time  

Dr. Clouser - they learned. There is a line in the book of Revelation that says,  time will be no more. There's a song and time will be no more. That's in more  recent translations it's rendered. Let there be no more delay. Yeah, I just don't  

see how they get that out of it. It's it's Kronos, it seems there's the word Kronos  for us. But it doesn't say though, that if time is abolished and isn't recreated. So 

there's a lot of ambiguity around that. And I think instead of biasing it by putting  your interpretation in as a translation, right? Just leave it as it is, and leave it. Let it be puzzling, because a lot of things in the book of Revelation as well,  

Henry Reyenga - you know, and that's really, you know, we can make our  theories about our experience. The Bible talks about the next heaven, I mean,  the new heavens and new earth and there's already next existence, die, and  how time functions differently. So we really, it's hard to make theories about that  which we haven't experienced. So we probably should leave eternal  understanding of time to that.  

Dr, Clouser - And in the meanwhile, we have that passage I referred to In our  last session, in Revelation of pictures, the souls of the dead before interceding  for the saints, right? On Earth, that assumes there is the same time that they  perceive what's going on, right. And they pray for them. So, and that's the  source of the practice of asking saints to pray for you, that can be corrupted into  praying to saints, right? Which we should not be doing, we should, but we can  ask them to pray for us. Right? So I can mean, my mother and father to pray for  me still, because they know what's going on here. And so  

Henry Reyenga - right, somebody grew that to whatever I'm saying, I want to get launched into this concept of eon. Okay. So, you know, like people say, I mean,  there's different interpretation. I know, Greek, you know, the Greek, I mean, but  

there's different philosophers and religious leaders, based on the philosophy  that they were going under, made some decisions. And what's interesting about  this is your philosophy will drive how you interpret the Bible often. So if you have a philosophy of, let's say, eternality, that sort of comes out of the perfections, of  eternality, of from the Greeks and suddenly that you can, then then when you  translate the Bible, you know, you can make something be for everlasting. Or  you can translate the same word will say, is for a time, so that it's for an eon. So  there's different, you know, different things. Yeah. So you can start, like, looking  at various things, and different conclusions can come based upon even the  philosophic understanding. Absolutely, absolutely. Right. Sometimes that works  to the detriment of the interpretation. But sometimes, and I bring that up,  because I know that in your upcoming book, one possibility that you talked  about, you talked about how the punishment of the wicked is, an eon in a sense  of, it's a time where there that all need, that all knees will eventually bow to the  Lord. Now, some people say well, is that universalism and all that, but your point is, is like, No, all. Heaven Earth, everybody will bow to Christ. 

Dr. Clouser - Right? Okay. And that seems to me that, that means believingly.  Because I Corinthians Paul says, No one can acknowledge Christ as Lord, 

without the Spirit, right? So they all have to be given the Spirit for them to bow  the knee and confess that Jesus is Lord to the glory of God, the Father, and  since that's everyone. That's what I concluded about punishment, there's a day  of judgment and punishment. Correct. But it's not forever. And there's no place  that says it is it says it's for an age, an age of punishment. Now, what confuses  people is that this expression that I eon, I eon the violence when that's used of  God does mean everlasting. Oh, I eon creatures, that means an age.  

Henry Reyenga - So you know, there's where the problem can be in your theory. Remember, we read the Bible. And, you know, you might look at what Dr.  Clouser was talking about as. No, that's not my theory. Because they might say,  Well, why would you preach the gospel, if everybody eventually will bow their  knee to God or  

Dr. Clouser – In order to bring those to God who God has predestined to be  among the believers and work for the coming of his kingdom? And bring them  the gospel so that they join with other believers in bringing about God's  kingdom. 

Henry Reyenga - Okay, working for the kingdom, right? Where are you from the kingdom and gather them all in? In the end, the punishment is real. Why would  you want anyone to get this punishment? 

Dr. Clouser - I don't, but again, the punishment of the wicked. The expression  that's used over and over is that every man will be judged according to his  works, whether they be good or evil. So that cuts across believer and unbeliever there are believers who have done wicked things that are going to be punished.  And there are unbelievers who may have led pretty moral lives and they will  have little or no punishment, right. Right. So the judgment is moral. But  everybody's brought to believe. So it's not that people enter God's kingdom  without believing no every knee bows and every tongue confesses. That means  they all have been given the gift of spirit.  

Henry Reyenga - So now again, so remember, we're in philosophy class here.  So in so a lot of times people will take philosophy and then they'll hear  something like, Well, you know, is this even Orthodox and You know what it is?  

Dr. Clouser - Even if it's even if weren't, you're not bound by my conclusion.  

Henry Reyenga - In this belief is more actually it is Orthodox, the Orthodox  Cappadocian fathers, they actually believe. Exactly. So this is the new theory  about the end of all things. No. 

Dr. Clouser - But as you have the early church fathers held this view. That's why  there's no item about eternal punishment in the creed, the Nicene Creed,  passes over it, and silence. The Apostles Creed. Okay, passes over, there was  no mention of eternal punishment in any creed until after the council was  Constantinople in the year 553. Okay, and the reason that the Council put it into  the Creed is the Emperor of Rome, sent them a note and said, I want eternal  punishment in the creed. So they did it. I think it's not exactly an exemplary  theological method.  

Henry Reyenga - Right, right. So so here, I mean, the upshot of this, in this  theory, we proclaim the Gospel. And because we want no one to experience, the punishment of God, in John 3:16, that no one perishes, seeing this. That's why  people were like, well, perish, you know, what is perish there, then this concept? Again, then these theories.  

Dr. Clouser - That's right, then that God sent Christ into the world, not to  condemn the world, but that the world might be saved and rescued. And Christ  has earned that redemption for everyone. And, in fact, there are other places  say he's redeemed the whole cosmos.  

Henry Reyenga - Right. So those are all confusing things. And this kind of my  take on it. I hope that his theory on this, and the Cappadocian fathers is right,  because it my heartbreaks, for anyone not to be close to God. Because if the  other theory that's common is that people are eternally damned, and they don't  

know Christ. My heart breaks. For people who don't know Christ, and the stakes are so high. So I don't know where we we don't know. Like knowing time that  doesn't happen. I mean, we don't know all these things. But we know that time is in play. Yes, and we know that punishment for sin is well worth missing, whether  it's eternal or to that so I guess we'll leave it at that.