Video Transcript: Anthropology

Henry Reyenga - Hi, Henry Reyenga here with Dr. Roy Clouser again. And now  we're going to talk about what does it mean to be human, or in the words of  philosophy anthropology. So now for me, this has been one that I've come up  with basic theories, I've read different Watchman Nee, he has a theory and I  kind of like part of that. And I remember studying Herman Dooyeweerd, he  started to have this belief. I love this. He or who was a professor, it's interpreted  the Herman, Dooyeweerd that essentially, it's not helpful to be dualistic on body  and soul. And dualistic means, a clear differentiation. So I felt like a lot of  Dooyeweerd's in the 1980s had sort of sleep of the soul and the the resurrection of the dead, is how they, the ones that were in my college battle, then they  started, didn't give, and I remember real quick a story and so doctor, the doctor,  there, I won't mention his name. But he had said that he, you know, he just  believed that when somebody died, you know, their soul slept until the  resurrection, they really didn't have much consciousness at all in the  resurrection, raised their body, again, I remember that. But now what happened  once is that one of them had a, his uncle was dying. And they had this out of  body experience that this philosopher witnessed to the point where Garrett was  his name, left the body hovered over the room next door, describe what was  being said. And then they brought him back to life. And then Garrett, said that  back to the philosopher. But then philosopher checked his theory, or that maybe  he's just like, he knew we were all praying, you know, and then they actually  heard again, the hovering Descartes and then they brought him back to life  again, and then the philosopher said, he said one thing, there is no way he  could have, he could have got what that one thing said and you said this, and  the philosopher who was a complete [undistinguishable] Monist, okay, in terms of  anthropology, wrote on the board, I still picture her today. He said it was it was  on the board before he even started to it was called he wrote more dualism on  epistemology that our I'm sorry, on anthropology than originally thought he put  that as a topic. more dualism. Now, meaning that he's adjusted his position that  there is maybe a conscious soul and maybe the conscious soul actually exists  with the Lord found a way to heaven and explains about the experience. Okay,  so that's my first word that I started getting interested. Now over the years of the pastor, I've prayed, and there's been people who've had the near death  experience, all of that stuff that sort of made me start asking, you know, what are what is anthropology?  

Dr. Clouser - I can give you a parallel story.  

Henry Reyenga - Okay, good. Let's go for it. Okay.  

Dr. Clouser - A friend I made in seminary, okay. Older man and myself, and he  became a Baptist minister. He graduated from seminary, and he did not like the 

Near Death Experience stories. He thought they were all just nonsense. They  really annoyed him. So some years went by, and he took a church, way north in  New York State, wrote quite a ways from where I live. And I call up one time to  invite them, him and his wife to come visit us. And she said, if you want to see  your friend again, you better get here fast. He's collapsed three times in the last  two weeks. He's on oxygen. So I got the car and drove up. And when I got to  bedsides things clear. I said he looked terrible. He said, ya know, I feel terrible.  I've got to tell you something. He said the last time that I collapsed, I had made  Ann promise not to have them remind me. But she couldn't. She promised but  then she had to remind me anyway. He says, damn if I didn't see that long  tunnel that everybody talks about, a light at the end. I'm walking down the  tunnel. And my friend George comes up and says you got to go back Cliff. It's  not your time. And I said George, what are you doing here? He says I died last  month. So now they revived me. And I said, call George up on the phone. So  she dials the number and George's wife comes on. I'm sorry George died last  month. Now, a lot of people want to dismiss all the near death experiences as  oxygen deprivation to the brain or something And maybe some of them are, just  doesn't prove they're all genuine, but only one of them has to be genuine. For it  to be false, or nothing but physical that when you die, that's the end of us. That's the I'm impressed by anybody's going to explain that one away.  

Henry Reyenga - Well, I always find that I called the, the neighborhood,  electrician reality now here's my little theory. So I have a theory, my theory, okay, so I grew up my dad, a mechanic and our cars broke down the most. Okay. So  now, as I grew older, my first church my neighbor is an electrician, and he was  one on, he would always say things like, better be careful, that could create  electrical fire, you know, you know, electrical fire, and you would be, you know,  coming over and be careful, that's gonna cause electrical fire. About a year later, smoke starting to build, build, houses wife come roll call the fire department, so  called the fire department, the fire department came up. Put the fire out. It's an  electrical fire. Now, I've never been near something like that electrical fire, okay,  but now, I always find that it's fascinating that philosophers sometimes get, I  would call, special revelation of things philosophical that they have to account  for. I mean, with this philosopher at Dordte college where I learned philosophy,  and he was a Dooyeweerdian Christian philosopher, he was so set on Monism,  that our anthropology is only, you know, monistic. And even as Christianity, he  interpreted Christianity to say that when you die, you slept, All slept and then  who would get the Uncle Garrett experience, but they don't. So other  philosophers I find over the years, you know, things, you know, back to back to  epistemology, theory of knowledge and that you observe, and, you know, books  may say this, and books, but you still experience yourself. 

Dr. Clouser - I, myself had such an experience. And I used to hold that view.  And I don't know, interesting. In fact, that's not the view of the early church  either, and, apparently, is not the view of the book of Revelation, which  describes the souls of people who have died, who are already in heaven, and  who are aware of what's going on in Earth and who pray to God on behalf of the  believers that are still on Earth. So I think the old review is the right one.  

Henry Reyenga - Right. Now, specifically, epistemology, you know, many people talk body, soul, spirit, the heart. So how would How would you see what's your  take on again, as a pastor and minister in your preaching and or the minister in  general, our chaplains, you know, you start asking these questions, because  you find that people have experienced things that give answers or glimmers of  answers to some of these questions,  

Dr. Clouser – I was interested in that a very long time ago. For my senior thesis,  in seminary, I did a paper on the biblical uses of the word heart, soul, and spirit.  And I read every intent, every occurance of those terms in Hebrew and Greek  and took the context into account to see how they were used. And this is the  conclusion I came out with. Heart is usually used for the central unity of the self.  Okay, that's the self itself. Dooyeweerd used the expression selfhood. Selfhood.  Yeah. Okay. And that's, that's the self is unity. There are all the capacities,  inclinations, dispositions, temperament and so whereas we tend to divide things  up into intellect, emotion, and will, the Bible writers see that all as in the heart,  it's all better.  

Henry Reyenga - The wanter wants what the wanter wants and wants it.  

Dr. Clouser - So, will is just a name for the heart desires, yes. Emotion for the  hearts feelings, intellect for the hearts knowledge. Okay. So those are separate  things. They are separate functions of different functions, right one thing so the  heart is a thing or two. Yes. And the spirit is used for the diversity rather than the unity. Okay, so one person has the spirit of peace other persons, a troubled  spirit. Another person is the spirit of kindness about the diverse gifts and then,  Soul, the way the Bible writers use it, is used for the life of the body. It's the  heart and spirit as embodied. And in their view, it's exactly the soul that does die. It's the body that dies. Now in popular usage, popular Christian uses ever since  the Middle Ages. They use soul for what the Bible writers use as heart. Right,  your soul is what survives the body but right for Bible writers, the soul, is the  body. Giving? Yeah, yeah. So if the soul shall die for.  

Henry Reyenga - So you're saying in your understanding, the heart does not  die? 

Dr. Clouser - Yes. And there is. It's not. It's not a dualism of functions. That's  what the philosophical dualisms were about. Right? There were certain functions of yours. Like, for example, bodily functions, they die and cease. But your  rationality continues on, right? That's, that's really Plato. Right? In one of the  dialogues, he says, maybe it's the case that because our minds are enough, like the eternal truths, maybe they'll survive death, and, and only our bodies will die.  He came up with a view that we'd be better off without bodies, and he called the  body, the prison house of the soul. Now that's not biblical. The biblical view is  that there's nothing wrong with having a body bodily functions are not dismissed, or degraded. And having a fully functioning body is part of fully being a human  being right, and that the human being after death is not a full human being,  maybe some kind of other body. temporary body, when they go to be with Christ, until the Second Coming, but then there at the resurrection, we all get the body  we all want, the one that doesn't wear out and fall apart. The one that lasts  forever. That's, that's what we're all looking for. Especially when you get older,  you're very keenly aware that you'd like to have that body tomorrow.  

Henry Reyenga - Everybody has their theory is, is you are in ministry. And for  me, I would say like the Spirit, and the heart, very similar, because the Holy  Spirit, the heart of God, there, and then the body, we experience our body and  someday we'll have a glorified body like Christ has. And then the soul relates to  more of sort of our emotions, our you know, again, these are functions and  whatnot and again, there's several passages of the Bible that you know feel like  you know, the soul, emotions the soul is sort of like there's an intelligence to the  soul I wonder you know, again, those are all in questions and when you know  we don't have worship in the Bible does have different usages.  

Dr. Clouser - Clearly does come out there is there is a duality. Something dies  and something doesn't. Yeah, yes, that's right. That's right. And, and I think the  way to think about that is not that the soul all along has been a separate thing  from the body and the body is a shell. That's discarded. That's not it. It's more  

like an amputation. A real part of you has been cut off. Yeah. And will be  restored. Right.  

Henry Reyenga - Well enjoy your topic now of anthropology. And I'm sure you  will come up with some of your own theories and you already have some your  theories, but this study, I'm sure will give you even more encouragement in  philosophy.