Darren Shearer - Welcome back to the theology of business podcast. I'm your  host, Darren Shearer author of the marketplace Christian and marketing like  Jesus, and this is a show that helps marketplace Christians to partner with God  in business, to help you make disciples of your coworkers, your company and  your industry, and get more teachings and interviews like the one you're about to here at theologyofbusiness.com as I've been discussing the theology of  business and speaking with other Christians about this issue, it's become  evident to me that some Christians in streams of Christianity assume that they  have the full revelation from God about his will for business, and yet, there's so  many different perspectives, and almost all of these that I'm hearing are  emphasizing a key part of what God is doing at the in the business world, and  certainly there's biblical basis for it, but it's easy to miss the other aspects simply because we don't come from A certain theological tradition, or because we're  just gifted in different ways. And so today, we're going to have a discussion  between two brilliant people in the body of Christ on the subject of Business as  Mission. Some of you've heard this acronym, BAM, and we're going to dive into  this to help you see that perhaps there's more to God's will for business than  you may have realized up until this point. And as you're going to hear, this  episode has a different format than we normally have. Typically there's just one  guest on, but we're going to have two today, so it's going to be a fun episode.  And if you like this format, you want to hear more of it definitely reach out and let me know. And so the title of today's episode is Business as Mission, a flawed  concept. And we're joined by Dr Scott Quattro and Dr Michael Thigpen. Scott is  Professor of Management and co chair of the business department at covenant  College, and is also the Chair elect of the Christian business faculty association. He'll officially be the chair of this great organization in October, when that baton  will be passed. And Michael is Associate Professor of Old Testament and  semitics at Talbot School of Theology at Viola University. And he's also the  executive director of the Evangelical Theological Society. He got a strong  business background and was highly recommended to participate in this  discussion by Steve Rundle, who is one of the leading thinkers on the subject of  Business as mission, and he'll be on the next episode to give a more positive  perspective on the merits and best practices of Business as Mission or BAM and what he calls Great Commission companies, but on this episode, we'll be taking  a look at what Scott has pointed out as potentially some flaws in this concept.  Scott, Michael, welcome to the theology of business podcast.  

Dr Scott Quatro - It's a pleasure. Yeah, thanks for having me. Darren,  Dr Michael Thigpen - thanks Happy to be together today.  

Darren Shearer - Wonderful. Well, so we're talking about is Business as 

mission, a flawed concept, so certainly appropriate that we get a definition of the terms we're working with here. So Scott, we'll go ahead and start with you. What do you understand to be Business as Mission?  

Dr Scott Quatro - Yeah, that's, I think that's a great starting point. And let me  even back up just a little bit and say I appreciate the introduction and the word  brilliant being used next to my name. And hope, hopefully I can resemble that  remark, and I know I'll learn some things from this conversation, which is all the  better. So my take on BAM is, is, arguably is, is often pushed on because I  argue that BAM can't be interpreted apart from these foundational three things  being true about a BAM company. So to me, when I look through the panoply of  what's been written and talked about relative to BAM, there's three foundational  truths of a BAM company. A BAM company exists to evangelize the nations. A  BAM company exists to disciple the nations, and a BAM company exists to  develop the underdeveloped economic nations in the world. And I don't think  that you can rightly interpret what's been written about BAM without reaching  those three foundational conclusions. There are other things that are espoused  as being true of BAM companies, but those have to be true in order for a  company to be referred to as a BAM company. In my opinion, a BAM company  evangelizes the nations, disciples the nations, and develops the nations.  

Darren Shearer - Michael, what is your take on the definition of Business as  Mission? Well, I think,  

Dr Michael Thigpen - actually, I agree and adopt a lot of what Scott's laid out  there as being core to BAM. I would add to that, that I think typically BAM is  thought of as a for profit business venture, and that it is designed to, I like the  way Eldred puts it, that it's God's transformation of people and nations. And I  know some who are doing this, not necessarily internationally, but potentially in  areas that are underdeveloped within the US. But it does typically have that  aspect of economic development alongside spiritual development as well. So it's sort of a holistic approach through a for profit business to facilitate both spiritual  and economic flourishing, sort of a holistic approach to flourishing, I guess,  

Darren Shearer - Scott, there are, there are several different criticisms that you  have of this concept of Business as Mission, as you defined it. The first of those  is, you have said that BAM is based on a dualistic foundation. What do you  mean by that? And then we'll have Michael respond to that,  

Dr Scott Quatro - sure, yeah. Well, I think it sets up a dualistic way of thinking  about business being for example, to use Michael's word holistic, I think it sets  up a bit of a dualistic foundation for thinking about what a holistic approach to 

business means. And the dualism is this, and I don't and argue you can't land in  a different place if you really are espousing BAM, BAM companies are doing  sacred work, and BAB, or business as business companies are doing secular  work. And therein lies the the launching point of where I start to get real  troubled, because I would argue that's just simply not true. I think there are a lot  of business as business companies, especially ones where, while there are  God's people working in businesses as business companies all over the planet,  and I would want them very badly to rightly see their work as sacred work, and  the BAM message undermines that. Thinking,  

Darren Shearer - what do you think about that? Michael,  

Dr Michael Thigpen - well, so like 99% of that, amen. I think we may. I don't  know. This may be really short. Here's kind of where I am, Scott. And thinking  through this is I would place holistic as modifying a different part of the  sentence. I don't think BAM as is, like Steve and others have talked about it. And as I understand it, it's about holistic business. I think it's about holistic  development, so that when a BAM entity is being thought of and conceptualized  and put into play. It's about that both kinds of development, both business  economic development, societal development is needed and also spiritual  development is needed. So the idea, then, is that BAM would help drive a  holistic development, not a holistic business in terms of I would agree, if we're  saying that a business has to have this as its core mission in order to be a God  honoring business, would say, No, I don't think that's true, but so I would place  that modifier differently, so that it's not a mandate for all businesses, but that it is a particular focus of a BAM business in order to be more holistic in its  development goals, not necessarily in in the business side. Does that? Does  that distinction make sense? Yeah, that's a  

Dr Scott Quatro - good word. Michael, I think where my mind then goes, rightly  or wrongly, and I'm a, I'm a big fan of the idea of of a business in and of itself, as an entity, as a part of God's good creation, if you will, and God's people working  in business having holistic impact on God's world, amen. But I think if we, if we,  

if we go too far toward that piece of the conversation, we lose the the real,  deeply foundational pieces of the conversation that trouble me, which is BAM  companies evangelize disciple and develop the underdeveloped nations of the  world, or or undeveloped or underdeveloped pockets domestically, if you will,  economically underdeveloped pockets in the US and all three of those quote,  unquote, foundational truths of BAM companies, each individually and  aggregately, sort of scare me, if you will. Well, maybe scare is the wrong word,  but they trouble me for sure because of the critical role that business plays in  the world and and that business needs to play that role in the world without 

being beholden to, I would argue, mandates that really are for the organized  church, or at least for MNCs or para church or not. MNCs, I'm sorry, NGOs,  excuse me not. MNCs, NGOs and or para church ministries which which have  different mandates, and they're part of God's good creation that are pursuing  different mandates that are complementary to what businesses pursue, that  therein lies, I think where most of where you and I may be totally right on the  same page, I don't know, and you might be as troubled as I am with the idea of a BAM company existing at its core to evangelize, disciple and develop the  nations. I don't know the answer to that.  

Dr Michael Thigpen - Well, that concept doesn't bother me, but I think this is  interesting in talking to you. Now, I think part of the difference may be I tend to  conceptualize this more at the individual than at the entity level. So, you know, I  always kind of boil this down. I would think, okay, if these principles are going to  work, then they have to work at the sole proprietor and at the corporate level.  And probably conceptualize it more as the let's take the sole proprietor. He's  under both mandates, or she's under both mandates, because they are part of  the human race, so they're under the cultural mandate, and as a believer,  they're also part of the organized church, and they are engaged in the great  commission work, amen, amen. Brother. Yeah. So for me, it's, it's a question of  motive and intent that an individual may say. I want to play both of these things  out in the sphere where I spend the majority of my time, which is in this business that I want to form. I hear that I do so that they're not making the mandates of  the church a mandate for business, but they're saying I want to do both together. And I think because they are complimentary in both part of God's design, I think  they can coexist. Well, not for everyone, not in every business, but no two  businesses are the same to that extent, they're they're local, they're they're  where they are. They have their people, their skills, their their relative  advantages. So I tend to start there with my thinking. And it sounds like to me  you're coming perhaps, from the larger, more complex end. And the question is,  kind of, how do these meet and play out in the middle, perhaps? And  

Dr Scott Quatro - yeah, no, that's a really good word, Michael and and it makes  sense, given your focus on theology of work, right? And I love that, and yet I  would then say in response, but there's a potentially very slippery slope,  especially if we're dealing with let's say you or I are counseling a student, right?  Which we do, we advise and counsel students on their studies and maybe even  potential career paths, and we might even use the big word, you know, calling  right? And we try to be discerning in doing that, in understanding the particular  unique makeup of a student and their unique giftedness and their affinities, and  how that all might come together and lead them in part, sometimes through us  to kind of nudge them toward, yeah, you really should consider a career in, you 

know, education, or you really should consider a career in community  development, or you really should consider a career in professional evangelism,  or you really should consider a career in business. And I think if we over  emphasize seeing business as providing having an instrumental core to its  purpose to use Van Duzer, Van Duzer wrote a great book called Why business  matters to God and what still needs to be fixed. And he uses an upfront  discussion to say, hey, look, if we think about business, we have to be careful to  think about instrumental versus intrinsic purpose for business and and what  happens, I think, is if we start to going back to my student analogy, if we start  advising and counseling a student down a path toward going in business,  because rightly so, they want to, at least in part, be faithful to both the Great  Commission and the cultural mandate. But they really feel compelled to the  Great Commission piece. They really feel compelled and gifted to evangelize  and disciple the nations. I would be hard pressed to say, well, then the right  career path for you is business, because I think then we have, we have  counseled them to see business as having only an instrumental role to play in  the world. The instrumentality being that's a place where a lot of people, maybe  even a lot of lost people, because I. You know, arguably, there's a lot of people  motivated by greed, and I know that at some level, that's hyperbolic, but that's  how a lot of people still view business. And boy, I can go there, and I can do  some good work, because I can evangelize a lot of people in business. I'd be  thinking time out. That might be the absolute wrong place for that student to go,  and it's also a bad way to counsel them because it counseled them. It counsels  them in line with viewing business as having purely instrumental purpose as  opposed to intrinsic purpose, which is the purpose of business in God's world as part of part of God's good creation is to prosper creation and to be a vehicle of  common grace for the world. God showers His goodness on all people through  the through the prosperity of business, and to provide a place where image  bearers of all different stripes can be unleashed in their image bearingnness, at  least to some extent. Of course, we know that none of them will be fully  unleashed Apart from knowing the truth and being reconciled to God. But with  that said, you know you've got a very diverse workplace where there are lots of  people that very badly want to be engaged in their work. And I know from a  theology of work perspective, you're probably saying amen and amen, and that's really the intrinsic purpose of business. That's why God created it as part of his  world, if you will. And and so if you over emphasize the living out the Great  Commission through a career in business, to just boil it down, I think it's a  slippery slope. I really  

Darren Shearer - do Scott, I'm curious, given that the great commission is to go  and make disciples, not necessarily to go and make a profit, although that  certainly would be, would be part of it. What is the role of and Michael, I like how

you really boil it down to the lowest common denominator of that sole  proprietor? What is that sole proprietors role in responsibility as it relates to the  Great Commission in a business context?  

Dr Scott Quatro - Sure, yeah, well, you can't say that that sole proprietor can  shirk the Great Commission and say, Hey, that has nothing to do with me,  because then we're back to my foundational problem of dualistic Foundation,  right? So they they always take the Great Commission with them wherever they  go. But as a sole proprietor and owner a business person, I would counsel them  to be very careful about how central they see that to their career calling how  central they see that to the purpose of the business that they're trying to  establish and profitably grow and sustain. And in fact, I would argue too often,  when that's the mindset, you end up with businesses that don't sustain. You end  up with too many startups and not enough. You know, not enough, uh,  sustained, long term, profitable businesses. Uh, again, I think there's just you've  got to have a right mindset regarding what your professional calling and  giftedness is. Alongside your calling is one of God's people, to love God and  love your neighbor, and partly that means always being ready to give a reason  for the hope that lies within you, with gentleness and with respect, making  disciples of folks all over the world. That isn't your professional calling, though, I  guess is really what it comes down to. To get down to that that the foundational  problem I have is that's not my professional calling as a business person. My  professional calling is to prosper the world through profit making as holistically in as holistically sound a way as I can  

Darren Shearer - and that. And then there's one of the other criticisms that you  pointed out there in your answer. You said that businesses mission undermines  profit. Michael, what are your thoughts on that assertion?  

Dr Michael Thigpen - Yeah, so I want to separate out in practice. Sure, I've seen that happen. I've seen folks who want to do the Christian coffee shop. They do  the coffee shop part really poorly. They don't make a profit. They're really not  even necessarily competent on the business side. And it is just sort of a shell for an evangelistic piece. And they would, on that end, those practitioners really  would drive away from profits because they somehow feel like that. That sort of  taints what they're doing. I don't think that's what any of the folks who are writing in BAM and really sort of advocating for it at a theoretical and a research level  are saying, and I don't think it's what those of us on this end, kind of coming  from the theology and text side are saying either. I think if you look at at the  orientation of creation, where sort of all. This comes out of God designs a  creation that's meant to flourish, and I think we could translate that into profit,  right? So if we plan something, we're going to get multiple fold the investment 

that we make. If it's done well, we're going to receive that back the same kind of  principles at the spiritual level. So I think that the creation is designed for  flourishing, which means to receive that kind of profit, to reinvest it back into the  business, the farm, whatever it might be. So I think there is a, there's a practical  level problem with a lot of the actual ventures that take place and might take up  the mantle of BAM that I would want to critique and have them think differently  about that. But I think a theoretical level, I don't know anyone who's espousing  that there shouldn't be profit and that that's not an important part to keep the  business sustainable and to truly be a business, as opposed to being a  nonprofit.  

Darren Shearer - And Scott, you mentioned, go ahead. Scott,  

Dr Scott Quatro - well, that's a good word, Michael, I guess my short response  would see would be that it almost feels like the BAM enthusiasts sort of push  aside the discussion of profit optimization, profit maximization, profit making as a given. It's like, oh yeah, of course, it's a given. You gotta, you gotta have, you  gotta have profit to be sustained as a business. And of course, a BAM has to be  profitable, but, but I don't think it's quite that simple. I think if you, if you really dig into what BAMs at their foundation are about, I don't think you can land any  place other than being concerned about whether profit will truly be at the center  of of what the business pursues.  

Dr Michael Thigpen - And I would, I would not disagree with that, and I would  actually say I'm okay with that, that I think many businesses have profit as a part of their mission and role, so things that are more on the social entrepreneurial  side of things. And I'm okay with that, because then you, you know, kind of use  the slippery slope language. There is a place in which, well, where does the  maximization of profits end? Obviously, we're going to hold it back from  unethical ways of maximizing profit for all sorts of other ways that we might think about profit might be pulled back every time we give in a charitable endeavor.  So I worked in the banking world, right? We did lots of charity drives and things  for the local community to the extent that the business chips in, unless you want  to kind of do some sort of ROI on their good nature, and do people like them  better. But at a technical level for the shareholders, they drop their profit by  giving money away. That's right. And so to that extent, that's not maximize  profits either. I hear so. So there is a kind of a spectrum here, where, where I  think we've got to be somewhere in the middle of a more holistic input of, you  know, we're doing more than making profit. We're we're doing something  socially for the community as well, not just for the maximization of profits. I hear  that 

Dr Scott Quatro - really good words, Michael, quick response, for a publicly  traded company in particular, and even for some private companies, although it  gets tougher there, because if the owner of the company wants to do what they  want to do with their profit, Amen. You know, one of my consultancy clients is a  company called Southern champion tray, and they, they are very generous in  giving as a corporate entity, and I can't do anything but cheer them on, because  it's they're so admirable in what they support and give to but even for them, and  certainly for a publicly traded company, I'm troubled actually, by charitable giving by a corporation. I think it starts to muck up the waters a bit, depending on how  far it's taken. It starts to muck up the waters a bit again, regarding what's the  purpose of the business, and oftentimes it can just be a cloak. And you alluded  to this on your own, yeah, people will like us better. So let's give some money,  because that builds our brand equity, that build that builds goodwill in the  community, etc. And with too many corporations, I'm fearful that is a big part of  the motivation of the heart when those decisions are made. So I'd rather that the company just rightly, either, you know, distribute the profit in the form of  dividends, or reinvest it all in the company, because that's why the shareholders  gave you your money, gave gave the company their money in the first place.  Scott,  

Darren Shearer - you mentioned the Jeff Van Duzer's discussion in his book  about intrinsic value of business, and he was actually just interviewed on the  previous episode of this this podcast, and one of the things that he was saying,  and that he talked about it in the book, is that that God's hand in the  marketplace is not necessarily equivalent to Adam Smith's invisible hand, and so you can't equate a market forces with the sovereign will of God all the time.  They're just not always compatible. And so maybe the the argument that BAM  undermining profit, it might, it might not be sufficient, because if God has called  us to make disciples. And that is, you talked about how BAM violates God's  sovereign intent for His creation. If, if God's intent, if the if the Lord's intent is to  go and make disciples of all nations. And the imago dei is Jesus himself. He's  saying, Help the people around you to become like me. I mean, isn't that really  what we're put on this earth to do, to help the the world around us to look more  like Jesus?  

Dr Scott Quatro - Amen, brother. I mean, I'm so with you and and the difference, again, becomes what is my professional calling as a business person, and what  is the purpose of the business? What is the corporate calling, if you want to put  

it that way, of the business that I'm working in and and when you bring into  either my conceptualization of my professional calling or my conceptualization of the corporate calling of the business I work for, when you bring into that too  much BAM type thinking, I just believe we start to distort and even potentially 

undermine what God is doing through us and through business in his world. But  at the same time, I mean, brothers, I'm totally with you in the sense that if, if we  if, if we know someone who's in a burning house, are we just going to say, yeah, 

we'll just let them stay in that burning house as it burns down around them. If  we've got a colleague or a supplier or a customer that we have the privilege of  developing an appropriately personal relationship with alongside our  professional relationship, and God nudges us and doors appear to be open for  us to to share the Good News and be a vessel through which God reconciles  another one of his people to Himself Amen and Amen. And that's going to  happen. But those are one on one relationship moments, and I would argue they need to be pretty carefully kept away from, at least carefully thought through.  Where are the boundaries here? Why am I really here? Why? Why did this  company hire me? What are they paying me to do? What did the shareholders  give their money to this company to do? And BAM thinking starts to erode, I  think right thinking relative to those types of questions.  

Dr Michael Thigpen - Well, I think, though, to some extent, okay, so I agree with you on one way in that I think that BAM may not work if I'm working for the large  national bank I used to work for because the shareholders did not have that  purpose. That's not why I was hired. Think that's different, though, than if we're  talking about an entrepreneurial This is my business, and so all of the  shareholders are those who knew this is how it was formed and how it would be  used. And so they are in and behind this mission, and I was maybe not hired,  but maybe I formed this company with a different intent in order to do that. So I  think, think we have to separate out a little bit. Most of the time when BAM is  being talked about, it's not kind of how I operated at work when I worked for the  bank, and I was there individually representing Christ as a worker there, sure,  but we're usually talking about at a purpose driven kind of entrepreneurial event  where I'm forming something with this express purpose. It seems to me that  those are very different, because your questions about the stockholders, if there  are any, are, I think would be largely settled because BAM, would say, hey, they  should all know what this is for, and how it's being driven so they're on board  with this in it, and this is why you were hired, what and what we wanted to do.  So I think some of those questions of purpose are actually answered by thinking about it in different scenarios, as opposed to all through one. Yeah,  

Dr Scott Quatro - that's a good a good push. Michael, and, and I hear where  you're coming from, and it's a You're right. I mean, if it's an entrepreneur, you  know, Steve Jobs was what because was going to do what he wanted to do with with Apple, and the world is a bit different now, because of that, Blake Mykoski  was going to do what he wanted to do through Tom's shoes. In the world is  arguably a bit different. I don't know that it's necessarily better, but it's different 

because of what Tom shoes has done, the southern champion tray, a fourth  generation now, family owned paperboard packaging company, again, that I  have the privilege of doing some consultancy work with, relative to strategy and  people management, the world is at least slightly different because of the role.  That Southern champion Tray has played in it for 90 plus years. It's such an  admirable place, but even southern champion Tray, I would argue, four  generations deep now, Christian family that cares very deeply about their faith  and worldview and tries to run their company very consistent with that, I would  argue, is at best, like 5% BAM. And I think that's a big part of the reason that  they have they are surviving and thriving for 90 plus years. It put it to put it really simply, if an entrepreneur came to me, and I was part of a venture capital firm,  and the entrepreneur made it clear to me that at the core of their motivation for  their startup was evangelizing, discipling and developing the nations, my vote  would be that they don't get any of my capital. And that sounds so inconsistent  with being one of God's people relative to, you know, the the role of God's  people in the world relative to the Great Commission, but I would be very  concerned about a distortion of this person's professional calling, what it is they  really are called and wired and gifted to do, and whether the entity that they're  going to be starting up is going to generate a profitable return on my invested  capital, which is why I would give it to them in the first place. Even  entrepreneurs have got to raise venture capital in some way, right? Sure, and  

Darren Shearer - oftentimes that's being done these days through shared  interests, affinity investing, you know, to where Amen going. I'm only going to  invest in you if I believe in what you stand for beyond just the return on  investment. And so it seems like that. You know, there's more of a market that's  coming together to support this type of approach to this BAM, or whatever you  want to call it, approach to business, where there is that, you know what they  would consider to be, and I know I realize fully that you under that there's a  issue with saying that there's something different between the spiritual objective  and the financial objective. I mean, because I think we're all saying here that it's  holistic.  

Dr Scott Quatro - I think so I hear that I do Darren, but, but I would say, also,  remember, though, that even if, and I'm not saying that this is how we should  think about it, but even if, a startup run by one of God's people, let's say, just to  use the sort of easy analogy of, or example of a new chain of coffee shops,  since that seems to be a quote, unquote sexy place for, you know, to use your  example, Michael, it's, you know, hey, a coffee shop is relational. It's part of the  community. So an entrepreneur starts a new chain of coffee shops and and, and they grow to 100 locations, and it's all still privately owned. And even if that  company never evangelized one person, or any of the professionals in that 

company never evangelized one person or discipled one person, or even if that  company didn't place one of their shops in a in a part of a city that really needed  economic development, but rather went to more developed parts of the cities  where things were very developed, and there was a more potentially profitable  return on locating the shops in those locations, even if all of that was true, that  doesn't mean that that company hasn't done sacred work. That doesn't mean  that that company hasn't been a tremendous vehicle and vessel of God's  common grace to the world. People are generating livelihood. Customers needs  for coffee. I know I can't say I need it, but I sure enjoy coffee every day.  Customers needs for a place to hang out and have relationships and  conversations. And suppliers needs for livelihood. And of course, whoever the  investors are, their need to generate profitable return on their capital that they  can then, in turn, do all kinds of good things with, hopefully, but that's up to  them, because it's their capital, and ideally, if they're God's people, they're very  generous with it, right? You get my point. If, even if a company never  evangelizes disciples or develops a nation. It's still doing incredibly important  work in God's  

Dr Michael Thigpen - world. But I guess I'd want to ask the question, if you flip  that, take your exact same company, yeah, they've got their 100 stores, and  they did do those things. Have they harmed the business?  

Dr Scott Quatro - Say that one more time for me, brother.  

Dr Michael Thigpen - So let's say that same company, they did have. Some  stores in economically depressed areas, and let's say that they did do  evangelism and discipleship as a part of their intention. Sure have they harmed  the business  

Dr Scott Quatro - that? Well, probably yes, I would say, in as much as this, at  least it would be a prediction I would make, those stores would more than likely  be underperforming, or the entire chain would be less optimally performing  because you're interjecting into the mandate of the business things that really  aren't about the intrinsic purpose of business in the world, in my opinion, in my  opinion. So,  

Dr Michael Thigpen - so then you would limit, and I'm going to be intentionally  sharp here, so you would limit the intrinsic purpose only to profit. No,  

Dr Scott Quatro - no profit. Yeah, no. I would put it this way, prospering the  world through goods and services that the world benefits in some way from, and as holistically as possible, engaging and unleashing image bearers in their work,

in that company, in that company, okay,  

Dr Michael Thigpen - so in our scenario of our coffee shops, what portion of that suffers because they do discipleship so, so in your prediction, what portion other than profit potentially suffers because of that? Yeah,  

Dr Scott Quatro - well, let's say they spend 10 to 20% of their time in a given  workday intentionally evangelizing and discipling others. That's 10 to 20% of the  time of their workday that arguably was directed toward, toward activities that  aren't really about the intrinsic purpose of the business. And I know it's, it's it  sounds yucky, I get it there that they should have a burning in their heart right to  to tell others around them the joy of the Gospel Amen. And for sure, that should  be in every believer, and ideally it is by the power of the Spirit. But it's not  everybody's professional calling, and it's not the core corporate calling of, I  would say, of a company that's pursuing a right design for what a company  should pursue. So at a minimum, I would say you got a 10 to 20% somehow  incremental impact on the on the probably bottom line performance of of the  entity of the company. But  

Dr Michael Thigpen - see, I guess I would question that in terms of quantifying  that my relationship with my customers, if I'm genuinely engaged with them, is  not going to be harmed as long as I'm staffed well for service, my service is not  harmed, not short cutting the coffee. It's still good. It's well made. All that's  intrinsically there. I guess I really struggle to see what the actual impact is,  because I think you and I have a perhaps have a fundamentally different  assumption. I don't see scriptures laying out for us a separate business and  personal calling. Okay, yeah. And so if that is not segmented in that way, then  I'm not sure that we have to drive a wedge about what's intrinsic to the business  and intrinsic to the individual, what's intrinsic to the creation mandate and  intrinsic to the Great Commission, right? I don't think we have to separate them  quite in in so stark a term, but to see them more as if they're complimentary,  they should be able to exist together.  

Dr Scott Quatro - Yeah, I hear that I do, and again, I think it's such a good push. Michael, yeah, again, we you and I as as God's people. Darren is one of God's  people. We are beholden to the Great Commission, rightly so, and ideally, it's a  

natural outgrowth of the of the love that's been showered on the grace that's  been showered on us by God and the loving relationship we have with him. We  should want to share that good news. Amen. It's it becomes, again, a matter of  how big a piece of that comes into my professional context, and what, where are the lines of appropriateness, and where are the lines really, of tapping into my  unique giftedness and professional calling and and I would argue that if that's 

where your mind and heart are all the time, or a lot of the time, then you  probably shouldn't go into business. You should probably go into some type of  full time ministry capacity. You should probably go in, go work for a parachurch  ministry, or go to seminary and and and and work toward being called into the  into the pastorate, and which is awesome. We need people with that calling and  that giftedness and that affinity and we but we also need people that that's not  as much of where their giftedness or their heart and mind are all the time, but  they're thinking instead about beating the competition and. Ways that don't put  the competition out of business, but in ways that make the competition better,  and being competitive and making profit and and taking joy and delight in that,  and not necessarily seeing others in the workplace as their agenda from an  evangelism standpoint, and too often, I think that's another nuance that BAM  brings into into play. It turns customers and suppliers and maybe even  employees, depending on how much employees know about the BAMness of  the company. It makes them their agenda, and it's it can be very inauthentic. I  might not want to do business if I, if I believe that the agenda of the business  operator, to me as a customer or to me as a supplier is to proselytize me.  Rightly so, I would say, even if I, if I'm lost, I desperately need to be proselytized. But that's not why I'm doing business with, for example, with Southern champion tray, or with whatever the entity might be, I'm doing business, so we can have a  mutually beneficial exchange that leads to greater prosperity for my company  and their company, and for ideally, then for the world.  

Darren Shearer - Mike, I'll let you have the last word here, and then we'll wrap it up. Yeah,  

Dr Michael Thigpen - I guess I see some of this as being issues related to  gifting in the church. The same way that not everyone's going to have the same  gifts, we have a broad spread of them in the church, we would have the same  kind of spread in a BAM business, and in the same way that in church, people  are not projects there either, or that we're really probably not doing evangelism  well, but we're having relationships with them. We could carry all those same  problems into the BAM business world and have all the same misconceptions  about evangelism there. So I think a lot of what we're talking about here really is  some core disagreements, perhaps about about intrinsic nature of business, but  I think we have a lot of commonalities here in terms of the potential of having  some relationship that's complementary between between the Great  Commission and the cultural mandate. I think this is a good conversation to  continue.  

Dr Scott Quatro - Yeah, I think you're right, Michael, I think there's some  foundational truths that we're both standing on where we would both look one 

under the eye and say, yeah, right on, work is all work, you know, with some  obvious exceptions, depending on where you take that work is sacred and  means to which people all over the planet image God, and God's people have  right perception of how they're imaging God through their work. Amen. I don't  think that, you know, I don't think we'd see eye to eye at all on the interjection of  the great commission as a core mandate of a business or a business person,  without me becoming troubled by it. But your point about the giftedness of  people in the church, I think that's awesome insight. We need to be able to  come alongside people in the church, for example, in the church on our  campuses out there at Viola and here at covenant, where we've got students  that are mostly part of the church, right? They're mostly believers. We've gotta  come alongside them and help them discern their giftedness and how that  giftedness can lead them into a professional calling that will that will take  advantage of that. God will then, you know, do awesome things in his world  through and, and I would argue that's where we can rightly help them think  through, is my calling in business, or is my calling in something other than  business? And and business isn't where everybody necessarily belongs, and  something other than business isn't where everybody belongs.  

Darren Shearer - Well, it's a fascinating conversation, gentlemen, we just that  we definitely want to keep it going. I wish we have more time? Want to be  respectful of your time. Know that you're you're making an impact with your  students, with the culture. And want to encourage our our listeners to come and  comment on this episode at theologyofbusiness.com and and if you have a  comment specifically for either Scott or Michael, I will make sure that they get  notified so that they can come and take a look at that comment and and  hopefully respond back to you. And gentlemen, thank you so much for the  impact you're making, for the perspective you've provided on the show today,  and may God continue to bless everything you're doing for His glory and  academic world and in the business world and beyond.  

Dr Scott Quatro - Well, thank you for that, Darren and Michael, you're a smart  dude. This was fun. Thanks for doing this.  

Dr Michael Thigpen - It was delightful to do this. I hope we can continue the  conversation, yeah, I would enjoy that. I  

Darren Shearer - hope you've enjoyed this episode. You can share your  feedback and get more information to help you partner with God in business and disciple your coworkers, your company and your industry. At  theologyofbusiness.com the theology of business podcast is sponsored by high  bridge books. If you're interested in publishing a book to make an impact for 

God's glory in the culture, head over to Highbridgebooks.com/course to sign up  for a free three video author training course. In this course, you'll learn how to  write a great nonfiction book, how to market your book and how to start a blog to build your platform as a thought leader, thanks for listening and keep partnering  with God in your business. 



Last modified: Tuesday, March 18, 2025, 1:05 PM