Video Transcript: Discerning Boundaries and Next Steps

Henry - Well, we're back now today, we're going to talk about this important discernment of boundaries and next steps. So you're having conversations all of that, but you'll find, and you'll find is, if you're not careful, you can get into a codependent relationship where you know people validation starts connecting to the relationship with the minister coach, and not them actually owning their own life. So so boundaries become really important. So in this session, we're going to 

Steve - understand the role of healthy boundaries in coaching, learn how to help clients to discern spirit led next steps, maintain integrity and clarity in every session. 

Henry - Okay, so let's get right at it. Why boundaries matter? You know, first of all, let's just talk about the philosophy of boundaries. So when someone gets married and they say their vows to one another, and they do it in front of everybody, what they're really doing is they're creating a very big boundary, but it has a lot of that's involved in this. It's a boundary, such as, it's a boundary of recognition. Now, this is a couple. This person has a ring. This person is married, a boundary. They're not single anymore. They're not an option for dating anymore. They aren't right. Notice the power of this boundary, right, okay, but it also creates other relational boundaries, such as sexuality can be practiced. Consent for sexuality is given in this relationship between a man and a woman. So all over the rest of the world, you know, outside of marriage, this issue of consent is a struggle right now in the world. So, you know, somebody thinks they have consent, they have sex, then, no, I was raped. And because the boundary are blurry. They're blurry, right? They're blurry. People don't know where the boundaries are, but marriage is a boundary. It says, in this marriage, two consenting adults open up their bodies to one another, okay? Well, in Christian world, this boundary is a place for children. This boundary is a place for safety. Now again, when it's poorly lived, when people don't honor this boundary their vows, we get things like divorce and brokenness, but the power of the boundary 

Steve - is huge. Your house is about right? And what is it? It provides safety for the people in the house. They don't have strangers all of a sudden walking in and writing it this or doing that, right? Everyone in the house feels we know what the rules of the house are. Which are boundaries, too? Yeah, you play football, there's rules. We play golf. There actually is a field, you know, so many yards long and wide and right, every game, every sport you know, 

Henry - that putt that we didn't quite make at the end. Wouldn't it be great to let's just do it again? But no, there are boundaries. We can all do it again. We wouldn't like the game of golf if there are severe boundaries in golf that that actually make it fun, right? So, you know, in some ways, I think we have to, like, get to a place where we appreciate the boundary lines. 

Steve - In fact, often we talk about being free of boundaries, as if that No limits. No Limits. Yeah, it's celebrated in movies and so on. And there is an aspect of that where boundaries become a jail. Yeah, right, but we're throwing out all boundaries because some boundaries are bad. Most of life is filled with boundaries. Everything you do, the clothes that you wear, the car that you drive. We, in our country, we drive on the right side of the road. And if you didn't, we'd have chaos. We'd have deaths happening all over. But we all agree, all right, here's our boundary. You stay there, I stay there, and now we can drive safely. We can live safely. I work, I get paid, right? If I work, and then you decide not to pay me. Well, that doesn't work. So, right? You know, all those I go to the store, I buy stuff, I give money. They give me this stuff. I mean, right? There's all well, 

Henry - and it even goes down to very spiritual when someone sins, someone pays, yes, that's the atonement boundary, yes. So here comes the Jesus Christ comes to the cross. Because. God's justice must be appeased. It's a boundary, like we have a lot of other boundaries, and it's an important boundary, and that boundary must be recognized, right? 

Steve - You think God could just say, You know what? Let's just forget that. You forget all boundaries, forget it, forget that you sinned. But no, God says, No, I take boundaries seriously, so much so that somebody's gonna pay. I will let my son pay. Yes, but it's still a boundary. It's still a bottom drink. 

Henry - So boundaries matter. In fact, they probably matter more than you think. They're probably are boundaries going on that you're not even self aware of, right? And they're in your day, every single day. So I think we made that point. Yes. So now the question is, in coaching ministry, coaching relationships, boundaries matter there too. Yeah, 

Steve - they and they protect the coach and the client, because we're within a structure. It? It? 

Henry - One of the boundaries is, I can't start dating my client, right? I mean, because that would, 

Steve - if that was a possibility, that would wreak havoc with this whole relationship. So, you know, so there's the whole boundary of, should you be in a building if I, if I'm a male coach, and now this woman wants to be coached and and there's a building, and I invite her to this building, and it's just me and her. Is that appropriate to be in the same room? Who knows what could happen there, or even what parents or the appearance, or, you know, the person is hurt by something the coach says. And then they go and say some malicious thing about the coach. I mean, because there is virtual warfare, which will so, you know, there has to be some, we have to avoid those basic kinds of things, 

Henry - yeah, and I will tell you we can both testify as being ministers, that we kept good boundaries, and, yeah, one of the reasons that we're at our advanced stage, you know, 64 and 69 in in this ministry, is because, you know, we held to boundaries, yeah, because we realized they're important. Yeah. You know, when I was young in ministry, there's a couple times that I didn't even understand it, and I'm telling you the by the grace of God, I didn't get, you know, into trouble. But it wasn't long where I realized, right, you know, I would not meet one on one with a woman that's not my wife, right? In any circumstance, and if there's a constant situation, you can call your wife to be there in ministry, or a spouse, I should say, in this case, you know. And so then there might be the boundary, if there needs to be a conversation on the phone, right? But we're not meeting. But even on the phone, there's a boundary of not creating a situation where there's some dependency or some sexual overtones or joking around or texting little you know, the issue is, you know, in ministry coaching, you will deal with things that relate to things like sexuality, things like hurt and pain and stuff. But I will tell you honor those boundaries to make sure that that this doesn't become where now all of a sudden, you're getting personal validation, or you're starting to feel like, Oh, someone likes me more. I'm not being liked at home. Somebody likes me more. It's it's all of that, yes, can happen in these relations. In some ways, we're warning you to say, look, go in, into your own peril if you don't set up boundaries, boundaries of place, boundaries of time, boundaries of sessions, boundaries of the you know, I'm going to meet with you for the rest of your life, right? 

Steve - Or are we going to meet for four sessions, right? What are we going to do here, setting some kind of expectation, otherwise you'll get eaten up in this coaching thing. 

Henry - It prevents dependency, avoids overstepping your role, honor, time, energy and responsibility. Very powerful. The biblical basis for boundaries. Well, let your yes be yes. New no we know that's the boundary, right? Each one will bear his own burden. 

Steve - So, so you know that when we when we're talking and coaching with people, we're helping them with their burden, but we are not the cross, right? I'm not the cross for you. Jesus. Is that right? You know? So we don't want to become the substitute for Jesus, which lot of times coaches end up kind of doing that right? 

Henry - Healthy coaching includes holy limits, yes, types of boundaries in the coaching time, like, what, how are we going to meet? How long are we going to meet? 

Steve - So I don't know when I started out, because I had a heart for people, a heart for ministry. I was always like, well, when do you want to be right? How often do you want to meet, right? How much time do you I mean, I was, I was willing to give them everything in the kitchen sink, right? And so I had no boundaries. So, oh, Saturday, it's that doesn't matter if it's my family time or not, right? That's when you can do it. Okay? Saturday, you know people, when they have a doctor's appointment, will take off from work and go see the doctor. But what I found in ministry, they tell me, Well, I work five days a week, so it has to be the weeknight or the weekend. And I never had the courage to say, Yeah, well, the doctor, you don't tell him that you're working. You get some time off and you go. So why is this less important? So again, I fell into that role of I as a servant of Christ, I should, and what I found is it hurt people because they didn't take it seriously, right? Because I'm willing to meet you anytime you call up last second, you cancel, and because you don't pay anything, because I'm in ministry, you just cancel, or you just don't show up, or you don't work on it, or you don't anything. And so I just found that all my trying to make it easy and help, actually, it was hurting my ability to coach them. 

Henry - So one boundary is time, one is role. I'm a coach, not therapist or fixer. That's a boundary, relational, no emotional entanglement, and that's what some of the stuff we're talking about earlier, yeah, spiritual point to God, not yourself, right? I am not the spiritual guru, right? God is why is it that you think a lot of Ministers get in trouble, and let's just call the elephant in the room. We know this. I mean, we have been around ministry for decades, and we know that ministers, even though the many of them are well meaning, and some of you, I know, are very well meaning, but some of you may be tempted through warfare to break inviolate boundaries. Do? 

Steve - I think it comes from the the heart Grace side of us, right? We're in ministry because we're so overwhelmed with God's grace in our lives. Some event, something happened, whatever it is, right? And we just want to give like Jesus did. And we have this sort of we have Jesus clearly in the huge in the grace camp, but we sometimes forget about him being in the truth camp, right, right? And so we're, we're, or we, or we, reduce the troop to truth, to a judgmental posture, which none of us want, right? But yeah, in the old days, I think a lot of pastors really had, they kind of leaned on the judgment side, right? They just told you what, this is, what you're doing. This is This is bad. This is good. Now go do it. But I think us young ministers reacting to that kind of maybe tacked like the sailboat to the other side, where we're so into the grace side, because we don't want to be called judgmental. We're afraid of that, that we've gone so far over that lot of times, you know, even with your kids, if you let them get away with everything, they become monsters. They don't listen. They're not happy. Kids love structure. They love discipline. Much gentle parenting. Yes, monster, yeah, gentle, harsh monsters, right? So I think that's why we get into trouble and and we don't realize our own human frailty, where you know, if you're coaching a woman, for example, you're a man. If you're a man, you're coaching a woman, the entanglement that can happen when you share deep things, right, right? Because you're now sharing with this person, and no one in the world has ever shared with them at that deep level, and so they're kind of drawn to you, right? And you maybe this person is really good at it too, sharing deep heart things. And they you enjoy it too, right, right? And like that. Since you're like that game you like, yeah, the discussion you like going. And maybe life is not even that good or right, the spice isn't right. And so now. All of a sudden in the guise of helping you get this emotional, spiritual thing in it. Is it, you know? Is it, is it the spiritual right now, or is it my emotions taking? I don't even know. It's just this, and then things just get out of hand. 

Henry – And you see again, the tacking. So, as 

Steve reflected the pastors that handed it down in the 60, 7080s, to us were of the World War Two generation, or even before. Really, some of them were even before. So could we go back a long time? Yeah, to the point where many of them were so averse, like, if they wouldn't even talk about sexuality, no, like they were so even their boundaries are so strong that if somebody went through some type of hurt or pain, don't go to your minister, because your minister will basically saying, don't come to see me. I don't want to talk about it, right, okay? Or just don't do that, or don't do Yes, don't get over that. Yeah, right, okay. So then our generation comes in. In a lot of ways, the pastors kind of went into the therapist, but because we're in ministry, and you start getting the soul to bear, that's different than just a therapist relationship, even, although a lot of therapists, more than you may think, also have had struggles in this area too, because you're dealing with deep things, and we don't know all of that, but when you hear one or two ministers that fall, it's in the news. Everybody hearing it. And we can, honestly, we can say, over all these years, really, we know very few ministers that have fallen, but we understand why it can happen, correct? Because you're dealing with these things. So now our generation tacked on that direction. So what we're looking for, even all this talk about boundaries, is how to find those places that safeguard your client, is safeguard you, right? And yet can be Grace filled, yes, caring and all those things. Yeah, yeah, it's pretty an incredible discussion. They're very important, though. And the last is, you know, remember, always point to God, not yourself, when to refer. This is a very good point as well. Yeah, what are your limits trauma, beyond training. And I do really do believe that, like, sometimes we want to take it all on. Yeah, that's earning person, right? 

Steve - Come to me, you know, I should do something about this. 

Henry - And even that is a boundary. Like, what is your boundary line for depression or suicidal thoughts or something like that, right? It might be something you go, I don't know if I'm ready for him, right? For this kind of and there's nothing wrong with that. There's nothing wrong with you being 

Steve - I am not the coach for all things. No, I make I'm a beginner. Some of you're just taking this class. There's nothing wrong with saying and I'm, trying to learn how to be a coach, right? 

Henry - The mental health crisis, we don't, yeah, you know, have all the answers. Addiction requiring the recovery program, right? Referring is caring, yep. Now, having said all this, one problem here is, in most places in the world, there is not the economic means to even get a therapist, a Christian therapist, a Christian counselor. In fact, I would say a large percent of the percentage of the world does not have it. But this training is worldwide, and you might be called into a ministry coach. And now we talk all about referring and you say to yourself, in a global context, you're saying, yeah, go figure, if I don't pay attention to someone who's depressed, they will probably kill themselves. So great. You just said you wash my hands like Pilate as someone who's pain. So we want you to know that we get it. It's complicated, 

Steve - but there is something beyond referral, or it could be referral and and the end is getting other people involved. In other words, a Bible study in a group. Yeah, Bible study. It knows where you're not carrying the load alone, all alone, and a lot of times people for real transformation, like, I think of people who go like, into the Marines here in the United States, you go into the military, right? And they have a thing called boot camp, right? 16 weeks of intense training for 16 weeks with a group, right? And that's when they become Marines. You know? It's during that time, and a lot of transformation needs that kind of thing. Like, I think of Alcoholics Anonymous is like that, where people, when they're struggling with alcohol, will go to a group, and they'll go four times a week, right? Right? They may go to a counselor once a week or counselor or never coaching. I know, yeah, you can't afford it, but they're so and that's what they need. They need other people struggling and other people helping. So whoever you're helping in a coaching situation, they may, maybe you can refer them to a professional psychologist or another pastor or someone that specializes in whatever their problem is, but certainly you can try to get them involved in 

Henry - something like the AA program, addiction require recovery program. The point is, is when you are in the area, even if there's very limited resources to find out what voluntary resources are, come to the church, come to a Bible study, come into groups and and I guess what I also believe, Steve is that many times you don't need a therapist if you can Get people in community. Yeah, right. 

Steve - Sometimes that is really the biggest problem. Yes, they're so alone that they have to buy a community that is the therapist. Yes, you know it's rent a community one person, and you can't do it. You can't be a community for them, right? 

Henry - And I have seen again, again, again, so of you that when we help people get connected with others, that just seems it's basically such, yeah, and if the church can take responsibility for that and gets credit for that, we know as church planters that when you connect someone and now they're seeing the transformational Holy Spirit, they're seeing the Word of God. They have friends. You know, all of that. That's the how churches grow even because people, you know, I've been saved. Look what's happening to me. This church helped me and I. So it's not just the relationship now of the minister, coach, coaching minister. It's now a full tapestry of connection. 

Steve - And you might say, well, I don't know if my church is that right. Well, what if your whole church took this class right, and now you have a church filled with listeners, right, and people who understand what exactly we're talking that's so powerful, so powerful, and then all of them are more likely to band together to make things happen that can support people. 

Henry - Maybe this class is needed for every Deacon. church, no, we have noticed that over the years in many churches, the other deacons have no training, right? But if they took this class and they started applying these types of principles, and new people came to visit, and these elders are deacons and small group leaders and staff people have these kinds of skills, right? It's such a game changer. So helping then clients to discern next steps. 

Steve - So how do we get them to actually do something? So it a lot of times, coaching will finally come down to, what are we going to do? Right? Always, actually can in pastoral care or counseling, a lot of times it's just walking with someone, empathizing with them, and putting your arm around them and caring and saying it's going to be all right, and things like that. But in coaching, you do all those things, but ultimately is okay. So what do we want to do? Right? There has to be something that we do about it or for it, or through it, or so what is God asking you to do? That's a good way to get them to own right? This step right?

Henry - Not what is God? What am I think God wants you to do. It's what is God asking you? 

Steve - I like this next question, what's the smallest faithful step you can take? You know, like a step is a start, any anytime you get someone to make a move. Yeah, is big deal. 

Henry - Yes, who can support you in this? Back to like, don't necessarily refer them to therapists. I refer them to a community right? Keep action small, specific spirit led. So something like, 

Steve - Okay, your action is to be a better parent this week. Okay, what? I don't know. It's so big I don't even know if I did it or didn't do it. It would be more like, Okay, this week, you're going to encourage your son five times and you're going to write him down. Yeah. So next time, we'll talk about those five things. That is small. It's doable, very specific, and it's something we can hold each other account. So good. 

Henry - Avoid pressure or push, don't rush clarity or force action. Whoa, that's a good point. You should yeah. Yes, duty language, yeah. You know, if you really were a good parent, you would Yes. If you really were a loving spouse, you would do this. And sometimes the client might do that to themselves. You know, I should be a better parent. Yeah, I should be a better yeah, self, lowly, yeah. And a lot of times that is just one step to not doing anything about it, right? Fine, you should be a better parent. What exactly would you like to do next week? Right? To be a better right? 

Henry - Let God guide the pace and direction. Coaching with discernment. Pray during in between sessions that is such a theme in ministry, sense, where peace and resistance lives? Ooh, that's a good one. Do you sense conflict? Here? Is there conflict in there? Are there elephants in the room? Right? Test, next steps by the word of God is, if you have an idea, where is it in Scripture? Discernment is holy, listening and wise response. So finally, clarity, courage, compassion, boundaries, guard your heart and protect your coaching process. Next steps are not leaps their spirit led nudges often in all your ways, acknowledge Him and He will make your path straight. So just to wrap up, boundaries, boundaries are good, boundaries like yeah, and they're graceful boundaries, right? So it's not boundaries are Law No. Boundaries are the structure of relationships that are healthy, from everything for what you eat to what you wear, what you wear is a boundary, right? Yeah, in fact, here's maybe a challenge for you to think about, is start reflecting on all of the possible boundaries in your life and the positive things that those things do for you. You can be surprised. Yeah?