Video Transcript: Q & A with Henry Reyenga

Henry - So going through this whole course with you, Carolyn. You know, I myself can think of  unanswered questions and but maybe you might know the answers to some of the  unanswered questions. You know, I always find it fascinating is like, the different eras of  thinking. So like in the first era, I picture in the house church era, things are more  decentralized. They're more grassroots. There's not even a sense of like a, you know, a local. I know in the reading, Lord Bingham's book he talks about, like, the bishops that are like, the  metro bishops and the bishops that are regional bishops and but they come,  

Carolyn -and you’re talking about a later period there, 

Henry - is all the stuff that you look at. But it really those early periods. If we were to be  transported to, let's say, 79 AD, the same year that Mount Vesuvius, erupts but there were  other places where there's a representative of Christian group, would we even recognize it  today? You know what I mean, We will go into a time where we'll even see ew,  

Carolyn - well, I mean, there wouldn't be much in terms of Outer Image, you know, there  wouldn't be crosses on the on the roofs, there wouldn't be bells in the tower it would simply  be a small meeting of people if your talking about earlier in somebody's house. Right. So  yeah, I don't think you would recognize it.  

Henry - What year do you think you really start seeing the, from private to public really  starting to burst out? In what, what era? Would it be like? 170 AD.? I mean I'm I I've often  asked that question, as I'm reading things. You know, I notice that public private, what private public, what era? In your opinion, and your reading?  

Carolyn -Well, I think it began, in the east, and it moved west? Okay. I think Ignatius of Antioch in early second century already has, when you read his letters, you get a sense of a pretty  clear, large assembly. You know, he is not talking about different house churches talking about one assembly in Antioch, when he then writes back to people in Asia Minor, who, whose  delegation has visited him when he's under arrest, and he's on his way. You do have some  references to individual doers of hospitality, you know, so probably house churches. So that's  about early second century, by the middle of the second century, Justin is writing in Rome,  and it's pretty clear that he's dealing with an assembly kind of, okay. Okay, so, so it's right in  there. It's in the second century.  

Henry - Okay. Here's another question I'm wondering about, at Christian Leaders Institute as  many of you know, that you are bi-vocational, you're not thinking of getting a professional  wage. I mean if the Lord opens that door, praise the Lord. But many of you just come 1000s  upon 1000s of you come and you're getting training. And, you know, we talk a lot about bi vocational about Paul's a tent maker and all that. there was a prominent sort of lifestyle for  the beginning of Christianity, when did that sort of shift to a more of an organized was it when wealth sort of hit the Empire Christian Church or?  

Carolyn - Well, I think it was when the demands of ministry got to be such that you had to  have specialized people who have specialized training. Now, it's interesting that you're raising this because Paul is ambiguous about this. Right? You know, he has this train this trade that  he can can earn his money from. And in, in Thessalonica, he did that. He said he worked with  his own hands. In Corinth he says, I didn't do that. A patron helped. Yeah, yeah, he accepted  patronage. So yeah, he had different approaches to that and does argue that he quotes a  passage actually attributed to Jesus that the, the laborer deserves his wages, right. So if  somebody's working full time, had a right to being supportive, so he didn't have to also work  to earn his own wage. But that would depend on how much ministerial work there was. I think

Henry - I liked how I mean, Paul leaves it in. I think all of us in ministry, many of us have that  struggle. Of if there's patronage, praise the Lord. If there's not, then I create my own  patronage and by working it's just a faster,  

Carolyn - they have a trade or craft or something with in with which you can work.  

Henry - In the colonial issue. Many of you in Africa understand that there was a time when  there was a lot of Western resources that would come into Africa or into a developing nation.  And, you know, and now it seems like a lot of that is leaving. And many people must, sense  that call and because they have smartphones, they're able to get this training, but it's still a  struggle where there's not that same resources. You know, another question I had that always perplexes me about the early period, is, you know, we didn't talk much about, like, the heretic or the what accountability or ordination accountability, At Christian Leaders Institute we,  through the Alliance, we have things where if a bad report comes in, reputation comes we  take them off the list, but I'm just curious, do we know of like, discipline, you know, ordination  we sort of believe to it's something local it's for life. But what about the discipline of people  who went off the rail? Do you know of any? I get? I mean, I've been looking for stuff like this,  to try to help. You know, like have you, do you know much about or have you? Or is that  another answer unanswered question.  

Carolyn - Well, it's another unanswered question. I think that we do know that some of the  churches that were later called heretical from the Gnostic and Marcionite, that, that they were belittled by the mainstream people, because they had women bishops and presbyters.  

Henry - Oh, okay. So the tide sort of turned against sort of the open door to women. And then  this became a point of contention. Okay, again one more, I have my, everyone what I did  before she came out, I'm just going to come clean to you, I would actually read your emails, I  had a question. And she comes and said, you'll just have to wait until we, you know, we'd get  this.  

Carolyn - Yeah, he had a question a day.  

Henry - I know. Well, I'm a curious person, and everybody knows it, but I never complain  about it. So anyway, as it turned out. Where was I going with this? Oh, okay. So when it came  to that early church concept of ordination. And then the, you know, the disagreement against  it and discipline against it and so forth. I sort of read between the lines that it got to be more  like some Gnostic influence that women were more considered part of sexuality and evil and  temptresses and worry about that. Again, I'm sure you've read many things. That was one of  the things I was wondering, like, is there any? Why?  

Carolyn - Okay, yes or no? There's ambiguity, about that because it's true that that many of  the Gnostic versions of cosmology of the worldview denigrated the female because the the  female, the feminine element was responsible for the fall. And that goes back to Eve, but it's  not explicitly Eve. This happens in heaven now and Sophia falls. But at the same time, some  of the same churches were known for accepting leadership of women. Okay. Yeah. So it seems to have been that in the in the mythology and the symbolism, they denigrated the female but but it didn't, didn't translate into restrictions on women's leadership.  

Henry - Right, Right, Right. So the worldview definitely hurt the women leadership cause. Yes,  but it doesn't necessarily follow that they're followed. So I don't have my answer. Now, I want  to like it's Gnosticism. It's like this. Ultimately, I guess just concluding this, I mean, one thing I  got clear out of all of this is that God really encouraged us, your sister, and your brother to  

open the door for our sisters to hear the call and and take their next step to see, what the  Holy Spirit is going to do through called trained, sometimes or not ordained or ordained  leaders. So that's why I get encouraged by all of this.